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Author Topic:   Misconceptions of E=MC^2
Chiroptera
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Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2 of 243 (451952)
01-29-2008 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
01-29-2008 10:20 AM


I maintain this equasion is a theory and as such has not been proved.

It depends on what you mean by "proven". A brazillion experiments have been performed on this, and it has been verified in all of these. In science, that counts as "proven".

Oh, yeah, it's a theory, too. In fact, being in the form of a concise equation, we might even call it a law.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

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 Message 1 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 10:20 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 11:50 AM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 5 of 243 (451968)
01-29-2008 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Percy
01-29-2008 10:50 AM


Laypeople tend to think of the word "proven" as meaning 100% certainty....

And one has to ask, what in the real world is ever known with 100% certainty? One can state that something is not proven unless it is 100% certain, but then the word "proof" has no practical meaning in the real world.

Edited by Chiroptera, : typo


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 01-29-2008 10:50 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 01-29-2008 11:22 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 8 of 243 (451989)
01-29-2008 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
01-29-2008 11:22 AM


...I think creationists tend to think of "proven" in a more absolute sense and believe it implies that no other conclusion is possible, the way we think of mathematical and logical derivations.

Well, I'll go a bit further and say that many creationists (and many non-creationists) are still in a Classical mindset where they believe that definite knowledge about the real world can be obtained through the pure application of logic, and, in fact, feel that pure logic is the best way to acquire knowledge. I may be wrong since I haven't paid much attention to the threads on which he has been active, but I'm suspecting that Heinrick is going to make some point about things not being "100% proven", something that hasn't been considered a problem in intellectual thought for about 200 years or so.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

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 Message 7 by Percy, posted 01-29-2008 11:22 AM Percy has not yet responded

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 Message 15 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 12:19 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 14 of 243 (452013)
01-29-2008 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by pelican
01-29-2008 12:01 PM


Re: plain english please
In plain English:

Yes, E = mc2 has been directly verified.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 12:01 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 12:52 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 16 of 243 (452018)
01-29-2008 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by pelican
01-29-2008 12:19 PM


Then why don't you just get to the bloody point? E = mc2 has been verified, and Modulus has even cited an experiment that verified it to a high level of accuracy.

It would help the discussion if you'd just spell out what your point is -- then we can write our posts so that they are more relevant, and we wouldn't have to waste our time beating around the bush.

Or were you just asking for information? If so, there it is.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 12:19 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 1:07 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 21 of 243 (452034)
01-29-2008 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by pelican
01-29-2008 12:52 PM


Re: plain english please
This response is from a misconception....

Okay, thanks.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 12:52 PM pelican has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 30 of 243 (452084)
01-29-2008 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by pelican
01-29-2008 1:07 PM


I believe there are many misconceptions on this forum concerning E=mc2.

Actually, the only misconception is yours. It's hard to tell what your misconception is, though, since you can't seem to express your idea very clearly. That is usually a sign that it's probably too nutty to really be understood, but maybe the problem is with communicating ideas you just don't really understand.

E = mc2 has a definite meaning in physics. What you think it means or what it should mean is irrelevant. Physicists know what they mean when they discuss this formula.

And it has been verified. You actually asked for an example of an experiment where it was verified -- Modulus provided one such experiment, and now you claim that he was off-topic.

I'm guessing that you are a nut.

Edited by Chiroptera, : typo


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 1:07 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 9:02 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 32 of 243 (452087)
01-29-2008 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by pelican
01-29-2008 1:49 PM


Re: E=MC2 experiments
I am disputing some conceptions on this forum of what it actually is.

Whose conceptions are you disputing? What conceptions do you find problematic?


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 1:49 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 9:11 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 33 of 243 (452088)
01-29-2008 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
01-29-2008 1:52 PM


Re: what is the rush
We're cross-posting....

Usually a sign that at least one participant should log off and wait a while before posting again.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-29-2008 1:52 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-29-2008 1:59 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 37 of 243 (452097)
01-29-2008 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
01-29-2008 1:55 PM


Re: E=MC2 experiments
Do you think my conception is erroneous?

Well, this part is erroneous:

If/when mass reaches that speed, it becomes light.

Mass (if you mean particles with non-zero rest mass) doesn't become light because it travels at any particular speed.

Nothing with a non-zero rest mass can travel the speed of light. Period. It would take an infinite amount of energy to get a particle to this speed.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-29-2008 1:55 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-29-2008 2:26 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 39 of 243 (452101)
01-29-2008 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by pelican
01-29-2008 1:59 PM


Re: plain english please
E=MC2 means a piece of matter travels at he speed of light squared and changes form to become energy.

No, this is not what the equation means.

What the equation means is that when energy is converted to matter with mass, then the amount of mass is equal to the amount of energy times the square of the speed of light. Or, when mass is converted to energy, the amount of energy is equal to the amount of mass divided by the square of the speed of light.

Are you Duane Ertle?


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by pelican, posted 01-29-2008 1:59 PM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by humoshi, posted 01-29-2008 2:54 PM Chiroptera has responded
 Message 68 by pelican, posted 01-30-2008 12:02 AM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 41 of 243 (452103)
01-29-2008 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
01-29-2008 1:59 PM


Re: what is the rush
I'll go smoke a cigarette....

Do it in front of nator's apartment.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-29-2008 1:59 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 45 of 243 (452111)
01-29-2008 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
01-29-2008 2:26 PM


Re: E=MC2 experiments
if (the big IF) mass did travel at that speed

The problem is that the equations don't work at all. You end up dividing by zero, which is nonsense -- the equations are useless. The current understanding is that this is simply impossible -- mass cannot travel at the speed of light at all.

Now, of course, it is always possible that our current models are wrong (or not precise enough to handle speeds close enough to that of light), but there aren't any models of which I'm aware that discusses what would happen when a mass travels at the speed of light -- I think that the "mass turns into light" business is something that someone made up somewhere in an attempt to understand the subject.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-29-2008 2:26 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 50 of 243 (452129)
01-29-2008 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by humoshi
01-29-2008 2:54 PM


Is it more accurate to say that one form of energy called mass is converted to another form of energy

If you really feel that strongly about it, okay.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by humoshi, posted 01-29-2008 2:54 PM humoshi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by humoshi, posted 01-29-2008 3:24 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6862
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 52 of 243 (452147)
01-29-2008 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by humoshi
01-29-2008 3:24 PM


Well, I thought it was clear enough, but if you found it confusing then I apologize.

But if you read his posts, I think you'll see that Heinrick's confusion is far, far deeper than we can possibly imagine.


Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by humoshi, posted 01-29-2008 3:24 PM humoshi has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by pelican, posted 01-30-2008 6:47 AM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
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