Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A Working Definition of God
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 332 (199211)
04-14-2005 9:39 AM


Very straightforward question, probably with a long and convoluted answer.
What is this "God" thing people keep going on about?
Not asking for what it did. Not asking for its opinion of me, or anyone else. Asking for what it is.
If we're going to be asking whether or not it exists, we might as well start by deciding exactly what it is we're wondering about.
This message has been edited by Admin, 04-18-2005 02:13 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:21 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 04-18-2005 4:10 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 04-18-2005 8:31 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 19 by Ben!, posted 04-18-2005 9:07 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 116 by clpMINI, posted 04-20-2005 9:04 AM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 180 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-21-2005 1:26 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 216 by Trump won, posted 04-22-2005 7:50 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 332 (200157)
04-18-2005 3:13 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 332 (200160)
04-18-2005 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dan Carroll
04-14-2005 9:39 AM


God is self-existing eternally existing, beginningless and endless uncreated invisible Spirit, Mind, without physicality, pure consciousness, a Who not an It, a Who that pervades all things but is not all things, who made all things and knows all things intimately, down to the smallest part of an atom, out to the reaches of the universe and way beyond that, knows the thoughts of every human being far better than we know them ourselves.
A start?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-14-2005 9:39 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-18-2005 3:52 PM Faith has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 332 (200168)
04-18-2005 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
04-18-2005 3:21 PM


Well, for starters, let's lop off what he does/what he did.
We're left with:
God is beginningless and endless uncreated invisible Spirit, Mind, without physicality, pure consciousness, a Who not an It, a Who that pervades all things but is not all things.
Which would also adequately describe the Shadow King, sworn enemy of Prof. Charles Xavier. Perhaps we can narrow the field a bit more?
This message has been edited by [Dan's Clever Alias], 04-18-2005 02:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 3:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 04-18-2005 3:58 PM Dan Carroll has replied
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 4:08 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 16 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-18-2005 7:55 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 04-19-2005 9:06 AM Dan Carroll has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 332 (200172)
04-18-2005 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dan Carroll
04-18-2005 3:52 PM


I think He did it best when he said; "I am."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-18-2005 3:52 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 4:00 PM jar has not replied
 Message 7 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-18-2005 4:00 PM jar has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 332 (200174)
04-18-2005 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
04-18-2005 3:58 PM


Doesn't really narrow it down
I think He did it best when he said; "I am."
Yeah, but so am I.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 04-18-2005 3:58 PM jar has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 332 (200175)
04-18-2005 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
04-18-2005 3:58 PM


Well, so am I. As is my cat.
Doesn't really narrow the definition to any specific place.
(Oops, Crash beat me to it.)
This message has been edited by [Dan's Clever Alias], 04-18-2005 03:00 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 04-18-2005 3:58 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2005 4:00 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 332 (200176)
04-18-2005 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dan Carroll
04-18-2005 4:00 PM


Jinx!
(Wise-ass minds think alike.)
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-18-2005 03:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-18-2005 4:00 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 9 of 332 (200179)
04-18-2005 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dan Carroll
04-18-2005 3:52 PM


Which would also adequately describe the Shadow King, sworn enemy of Prof. Charles Xavier. Perhaps we can narrow the field a bit more?
Never heard of this personage so have no idea how to narrow anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-18-2005 3:52 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by CK, posted 04-18-2005 7:26 PM Faith has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 10 of 332 (200181)
04-18-2005 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dan Carroll
04-14-2005 9:39 AM


Just to enter a formal definition into the record, this is from Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary:
God - (A.S. and Dutch God; Dan. Gud; Ger. Gott), the name of the Divine Being. It is the rendering (1) of the Hebrew 'El, from a word meaning to be strong; (2) of 'Eloah_, plural _'Elohim. The singular form, Eloah, is used only in poetry. The plural form is more commonly used in all parts of the Bible, The Hebrew word Jehovah (q.v.), the only other word generally employed to denote the Supreme Being, is uniformly rendered in the Authorized Version by "LORD," printed in small capitals. The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible. There is nowhere any argument to prove it. He who disbelieves this truth is spoken of as one devoid of understanding (Ps. 14:1).
The arguments generally adduced by theologians in proof of the being of God are:
  1. The a priori argument, which is the testimony afforded by reason.
  2. The a posteriori argument, by which we proceed logically from the facts of experience to causes. These arguments are,
    1. The cosmological, by which it is proved that there must be a First Cause of all things, for every effect must have a cause.
    2. The teleological, or the argument from design. We see everywhere the operations of an intelligent Cause in nature.
    3. The moral argument, called also the anthropological argument, based on the moral consciousness and the history of mankind, which exhibits a moral order and purpose which can only be explained on the supposition of the existence of God. Conscience and human history testify that "verily there is a God that judgeth in the earth."
The attributes of God are set forth in order by Moses in Ex. 34:6,7. (see also Deut. 6:4; 10:17; Num. 16:22; Ex. 15:11; 33:19; Isa. 44:6; Hab. 3:6; Ps. 102:26; Job 34:12.) They are also systematically classified in Rev. 5:12 and 7:12.
God's attributes are spoken of by some as absolute, i.e., such as belong to his essence as Jehovah, Jah, etc.; and relative, i.e., such as are ascribed to him with relation to his creatures. Others distinguish them into communicable, i.e., those which can be imparted in degree to his creatures: goodness, holiness, wisdom, etc.; and incommunicable, which cannot be so imparted: independence, immutability, immensity, and eternity. They are by some also divided into natural attributes, eternity, immensity, etc.; and moral, holiness, goodness, etc.
I found this with Google, and at first thought I'd stumbled across a definition not influenced my modern debates, and I guess that's true. but after poking about a bit more I found that this definition seems to be at a number of sites on the web, including ChristianAnswers.net.
My own definition of God? I guess I have to start by saying I have absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever. This is strictly my opinion. My definition doesn't so much define God as it delineates what we don't know about him.
First, we don't know for sure if God exists, but many believe he does. The rest of my points assume he does.
Second, though they won't admit it, none of the world's religions, institutional or otherwise, have any knowledge of God.
Third, we do not know any of the qualities of God, such as whether he is omniscient or omnipotent.
Fourth, if he is able to leave a visible imprint on the universe, either he does it in ways indistinguishable by humans from natural causes, or he does all his work out of reach of human investigation, or he did all his work "in the beginning" when the laws of the universe were first formulated.
Fifth, we do not know if God is aware of us, or if he interferes in human affairs, or if he interacts with human beings.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-14-2005 9:39 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 5:28 PM Percy has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 332 (200193)
04-18-2005 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Percy
04-18-2005 4:10 PM


quote:
Second, though they won't admit it, none of the world's religions, institutional or otherwise, have any knowledge of God.
Hm. How can you KNOW that these religions have no knowledge of something you yourself know nothing about? Isn't it possible for other people to know things you don't know?
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-18-2005 04:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 04-18-2005 4:10 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-18-2005 6:57 PM Faith has replied
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 04-18-2005 9:04 PM Faith has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 12 of 332 (200211)
04-18-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
04-18-2005 5:28 PM


i believe i know my god (in a very superficial and character-based manner). but at least i am humble enough to accept that i could be completely wrong. what gives you the authority and the arrogance to proclaim that you know god. you cannot know him. he is eternal and exists outside of anything you can comprehend.
how dare you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 5:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 7:08 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 04-20-2005 12:18 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 332 (200213)
04-18-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by macaroniandcheese
04-18-2005 6:57 PM


First off, I didn't say anything about my own knowledge. I asked a debate question.
Second, you would have a point about any claim of mine to know God personally if I'd made it up myself, and made Him up, but I am simply believing what God Himself has told us in His word, and following His directives that His people have followed for 3500 years. People who dismiss what He has said to us and make up their own God are the arrogant ones.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-18-2005 06:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by macaroniandcheese, posted 04-18-2005 6:57 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 04-18-2005 9:13 PM Faith has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 14 of 332 (200215)
04-18-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
04-18-2005 4:08 PM


He's a comicbook badguy and Dan is right - your explanation fits him 100%!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 4:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 04-18-2005 7:49 PM CK has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 332 (200220)
04-18-2005 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by CK
04-18-2005 7:26 PM


Apparently the comicbook creator was trying to make a point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by CK, posted 04-18-2005 7:26 PM CK has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024