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Author
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Topic: Source of biblical flood water?
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1369 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 196 of 263 (201616)
04-23-2005 10:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 194 by simple
04-23-2005 7:15 PM
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Re: 'surely' even affected cambrian
Are you suggesting that there are only 4 funamental forces in a merged physical/spiritual 'matter'? why do i bother? take a physics class.
In heaven it is natural to be spiritual. It would not be natural there, or possible to go by physical only laws. so does god hold everything together? is he personally holding every neutron and proton together in the nucleus of every atom? is he sticking all of the quarks together? or do you suspect that he probably has a system that designed to do this for him?
No, you are assuming concequences that do not exist, because you know nothing about the merged atate, and how it affected, therefore the physical state! look, you're the one that doesn't live in the real world, let alone a spiritual one. and you seem to know nothing of either physics or theology.
"moth tamuth; Literally, a death thou shalt die; or, dying thou shalt die. Thou shalt not only die spiritually, by losing the life of God, but from that moment thou shalt become mortal, and shalt continue in a dying state till thou die. " Genesis 2 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.orgI believe this is more what God said and meant, and it was the devil who lied, not God. welcome to the field of apologistics. the repitition emphasizes the concept. "a death you will die" is probably an acceptable literal translation. the other one makes no sense grammatically in the sentance. but read the sentance. "in the day you eat thereof, a death you will die." how does indicate the start of mortality? it doesn't. adam and eve THINK god's gonna kill them. that's why they hide. it doesn't make sense the other way. god takes extra care to let them know grammatically that he means business. "i'm really gonna kill you," says god. the snake comes along and says "no, god's not really gonna kill you." and god doesn't.
Man's death was introduced, as just pointed out. no, that's simply not what the bible says. it's a blatantly christian set of mental gymnastics and compromise, so that paul's stuff later makes sense. jews -- the people who wrote the book -- simply don't read it that way. it says they're really gonna die the day they eat. and the snake says they're not really gonna die the day they eat. they ate, and didn't die. half the point of the story is that even thought the snake is RIGHT they still messed up by following someone besides the lord. compare this to later commandments about what to do with prophest who speak in the name of another god.
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Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Deu 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
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Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
see? same thing. doesn't matter if the snake was right -- and he was -- the point is that it's still wrong.
Elsewhere in the bible we find out that so much is eternal, like the sun, and earth, etc. still haven't actually read the bible, have you?
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Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
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2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
How could Adam have eaten the tree of life, and lived forever on earth, when earth was decaying? same way god could. according to god, eating from both the tree of life and the tree of knowledge would make a man a god.
That is your take on things. uh. no. that's pretty much implied from the text. god says he's gonna kill them. they hide from god. i wonder why?
I think they may have also noticed a changed world. hahah. no. they noticed THE WORLD. period. it just says their eyes were openned. the first thing they noticed was that they were NAKED. they didn't notice that before.
Animals that stsrted acting weird, as they too stsrted to undergo change, maybe they could not talk to the animals as they were used to doing now. book, chapter, verse?
Maybe the heavens looked different, as the spiritual light needed to be replaced with our slow physical only light. book, chapter, verse?
Maybe this even changed the sky color some? book, chapter, verse?
Maybe their bodies stsrted to go through some different things. book, chapter, verse?
Maybe they used to be flesh and bone, and now were being changed to flesh and blood? book, chapter, verse?
No, I think many things, everything started to be very different. book, chapter, verse?
Then there was their shame of nakedness, hey, look, one from the bible finally!
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Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.
and maybe the realization they had been duped by the devil book, chapter, verse? mine only says "snake" and then goes on to explain exactly what a snake is at the end of the chapter... i think perhaps you should stop making stuff up, and stick to bible.
Little rocks and particles are in dirt as well. plants do not grow on rocks and pebbles alone.
Rocks decay no, rocks weather. and weathered rocks give you... ? anyone? that's right. sand! also not good for growing plants. (and besides, i thought you said nothing decayed?)
I wonder how the trees grow in heaven with no decay? I guess it is a different type of decay if any. who knows. but it doesn't matter because -- the garden of eden is not heaven. it's on earth, and bible gives it a VERY explicit location. it is subject to physical laws. and i also think god is well aware that death is a part of life. we did design it that way afterall. he'd have to have COMPLETELY recreated earth post-fall otherwise, because everything now is thoroughly dependent on death in order to live.
Perhaps when we eat a fruit there, the unused portion just vanishes, leaving no mess, in an instant 'decay'! again. why do i bother? keep dreaming, and just making crap up.
Not for men or beast, or the earth. but plants are ok. i see. no death, EXCEPT --. right.
Also, the plants themselves, did they die? I don't think so. So eating their fruit isn't killing the plant at all! you're still killing them when you eat them. the individual things you eat are alive. and by cutting them off and eating them, you're killing them.
The sin that entered the world through Adam but that didn't cause abel's death. (even if it allowed it). and seriously, what would you suppose would happen if adam had chopped off eve's head before they ate? would eve's dismembered head just stay alive while her body looks for it?
and that Jesus came to destroy jesus destorying adam's sin? funny, we're STILL dealing with the consequences of his actions, aren't we? we still work all the time, have emotional pain, and snakes still have no legs. and more importantly -- WE STILL DIE.
If Abel were immortal, I don't think one could kill him! ever seen highlander? good series, bad movies. the immortals run around killing each other all the time. fun stuff.
My point was that if Adam could've got to it, and eaten, as God says, he would have had eternal life (again). so one tree cancels out the other? that's preposterous. and god doesn't say "again." those are your words. god says if adam eats it, he'll live forever. as in he's not living forever if he doesn't eat it. as in he hasn't eaten it, and is not living forever. adam is, and always was mortal. This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-23-2005 09:45 PM
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 194 by simple, posted 04-23-2005 7:15 PM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 198 by simple, posted 04-24-2005 1:46 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1369 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 197 of 263 (201625)
04-23-2005 11:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 195 by simple
04-23-2005 7:36 PM
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more book check.
Well, no. The earth is forever. quote:
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
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2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth
Maybe the angels had rebelled already book, chapter, verse?
and the majority of heaven needed to see what it was like to chose to reject God, and live without Him? seem to be doing pretty good. according the common myth, god casts a bunch of angels out of heaven to be burned in eternal torture. by comparison, they're a MUCH better example. unfortunately, that's not in the bible.
angelic defections hahaha i thought you said defecations. sorry. moving on.
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Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
With real free will, man could have chosen not to have eaten the fruit, however. without knowledge of good and evil, he wouldn't have known any better.
Now as to how the pillars of the earth were, I don't think it was set up to be for the flood? quote:
1Sa 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
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Job 9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
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Psa 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.
all after the flood. 
He was sad about it. 'greived', doesn't sound at all like it was some diabolical plan all along. He had to purge the ranks, and cull off the bad ones, to save the rest. quote:
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
only noah was excused. (and presumably noah's family, for his sake) hardly a purging of the ranks -- he's killing EVERYONE but noah.
Why not? Theres wine we know of, and water, why not other beverages? book, chapter, verse?
Gravity? Well, we can fly in heaven book, chapter, verse?
Makes me wonder if earth's gravity, then was different pre split as well? Maybe it was much less. book, chapter, verse? This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 04-23-2005 10:10 PM
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 195 by simple, posted 04-23-2005 7:36 PM | | simple has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 199 by simple, posted 04-24-2005 1:56 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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simple 
Inactive Member
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changes
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why do i bother? take a physics class.
Physics are overruled, and not at all applicable to a merged state. It is only one element in the equation, not even the most important one.
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so does god hold everything together? is he personally holding every neutron and proton together in the nucleus of every atom? is he sticking all of the quarks together? or do you suspect that he probably has a system that designed to do this for him?
Ha. In the merged world it is a spiritual system, as well, and foremost. It actually is far superior.
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you seem to know nothing of either physics or theology.
Neither of these apply much to the spiritual, only to the box.
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how does indicate the start of mortality?
Well, as it says. " but from that moment thou shalt become mortal, and shalt continue in a dying state till thou die. " And this was true, what happened what He meant all along, and the devil is the liar from the beginning, and the father of it!
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-- the people who wrote the book -- simply don't read it that way. it says they're really gonna die the day they eat
They are dead wrong.
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see? same thing. doesn't matter if the snake was right -- and he was -- the point is that it's still wrong.
No. This is your purposely antagonistic accusatory hogwash
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Elsewhere in the bible we find out that so much is eternal, like the sun, and earth, etc. still haven't actually read the bible, have you?
The surface of the earth will be burned up, but the ball itself is forever. The heavens will depart as a scroll, then, revealing the new (merged) eternal heavens that will be still recognizable, but different, as we see all we can't see now, and the spiritual is merged.
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How could Adam have eaten the tree of life, and lived forever on earth, when earth was decaying? same way god could. according to god, eating from both the tree of life and the tree of knowledge would make a man a god.
'As' a god. Yes He is moving here, and His holy city the real Jerusalem, or new Jerusalem, the holy mountain of God. It will came down from the sky, to stay here, the new center of the universe (as you will see as the new heavens are revealed)-Home of the Almight God!
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Animals that stsrted acting weird, as they too started to undergo change, maybe they could not talk to the animals as they were used to doing now. book, chapter, verse?
Notice the key word there--MAYBE! As far as animals being changed in the merged or everlasting stste, one example is a lion eating straw!
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Maybe the heavens looked different, as the spiritual light needed to be replaced with our slow physical only light. book, chapter, verse?
See the "maybe"? Where did the light that was made before the sun go? Same with the other maybes you listed.
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and maybe the realization they had been duped by the devil book, chapter, verse? mine only says "snake" and then goes on to explain exactly what a snake is at the end of the chapter... i think perhaps you should stop making stuff up, and stick to bible.
"As the serpent beguiled Eve. See Genesis 3:1-11. The word serpent here refers doubtless to Satan, who was the agent by whom Eve was beguiled. See John 8:44; 1 John 3:8; Revelation 12:9; 20:2. Paul did not mean that they were in danger of being corrupted in the same way, but that similar efforts would be made to seduce them. Satan adapts his temptations to the character and circumstances of the tempted." 2 Corinthians 11 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
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Rocks decay no, rocks weather. and weathered rocks give you... ? anyone? that's right. sand! also not good for growing plants. (and besides, i thought you said nothing decayed?)
We are talking post split here. My gardens usually have rocks. How small a rock does it have to be to decay? Ever hear of compost? Thats the name of the game in box gardening, decay!
[quote] -- the garden of eden is not heaven. it's on earth, quote:
Also, the plants themselves, did they die? I don't think so. So eating their fruit isn't killing the plant at all! you're still killing them when you eat them. the individual things you eat are alive. and by cutting them off and eating them, you're killing them.
Well we could say that, but I'd hardly call it murder to eat fruit from an orchard!
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what would you suppose would happen if adam had chopped off eve's head before they ate? would eve's dismembered head just stay alive while her body looks for it?
Adam wouldn't do that. And yes, they could not die.
[quote] so one tree cancels out the other? that's preposterous. quote:
adam is, and always was mortal
Now he's in heaven, hardly all that mortal, I'd say. We'll have to disagree on whether Adam was meant to live forever or not.
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simple
Inactive Member
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Re: more book check.
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only noah was excused. (and presumably noah's family, for his sake) hardly a purging of the ranks -- he's killing EVERYONE but noah.
That was what had to be done to save man. Now there are billions of us.
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Why not? Theres wine we know of, and water, why not other beverages? book, chapter, verse?
"Mt 26:29 - But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. " "1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."
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Gravity? Well, we can fly in heaven book, chapter, verse?
Jesus flew up to heaven, the angels fly.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1369 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 200 of 263 (201649)
04-24-2005 4:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 198 by simple
04-24-2005 1:46 AM
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Re: changes
Physics are overruled, and not at all applicable to a merged state. It is only one element in the equation, not even the most important one. no. take a physics class. you have no appreciation for the beauty of god's creation, let alone basic understand of it.
Neither of these apply much to the spiritual, only to the box. theology doesn't apply to the spiritual? that's a good one.
Well, as it says.
" but from that moment thou shalt become mortal, and shalt continue in a dying state till thou die. " book, chapter, verse?
And this was true, what happened what He meant all along, and the devil is the liar from the beginning, and the father of it! i see nothing about a devil -- just a snake.
They are dead wrong. the authors are wrong about what the book says. right. tell me, do you read hebrew, the language it was written in? do you read greek, the language our oldest manuscript is in? no? well i think the people who wrote it AND speak the language it was written probably have a better understanding of it then you then.
see? same thing. doesn't matter if the snake was right -- and he was -- the point is that it's still wrong. No. This is your purposely antagonistic accusatory hogwash so you deny that god says that sometimes false prophets of other religions are occasionally right? i'm sorry, but "purposely antagonistic accusatory hogwash" doesn't cut it as far as textual evidence, especially in face of the proof to the contrary. as for hogwash -- i'd take a good look at your own posts. (and stop making stuff up as you go along)
The surface of the earth will be burned up, but the ball itself is forever. The heavens will depart as a scroll, then, revealing the new (merged) eternal heavens that will be still recognizable, but different, as we see all we can't see now, and the spiritual is merged. no. the bible says the will be destroyed. jesus say the will pass away. as in gone. you're not disagreeing with the bible are you? do you defend your defense of the bible at the cost of the bible?
and His holy city the real Jerusalem, or new Jerusalem, the holy mountain of God. It will came down from the sky, to stay here, the new center of the universe (as you will see as the new heavens are revealed)-Home of the Almight God! book, chapter, verse?
Notice the key word there--MAYBE! yeah, i did notice. that's why i'm calling you on it. you're making stuff up -- this has NOTHING to do with the bible.
As far as animals being changed in the merged or everlasting stste, one example is a lion eating straw! future tense. the lion WILL eat straw, wolf lay down with lamb, etc. tell me, you think isaiah means these literally?
"As the serpent beguiled Eve. See Genesis 3:1-11. The word serpent here refers doubtless to Satan, who was the agent by whom Eve was beguiled. See John 8:44; 1 John 3:8; Revelation 12:9; 20:2. Paul did not mean that they were in danger of being corrupted in the same way, but that similar efforts would be made to seduce them. Satan adapts his temptations to the character and circumstances of the tempted." 2 Corinthians 11 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org yeah. ok that's great and all, but it's still wrong. tell me, is the devil the most cursed wild animal? does he crawl around on his belly, and lick the ground? i wonder what this verse could be describing? could it be --- a snake? is the devil a snake? the story is an explanation of why snakes are snakes. if it's the devil, he's a snake. yes, literally. let's look at the verse mentioned.
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Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
great. but the snake didn't lie. nor did he murder. cain was the first murderer, in the beginning. also, "devil" literally means "liar" or "lying spirit." notice it's mysteriously absent from the old testament? it's a greek word. here's an ot equivalent.
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1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
look at that. god is a devil. hmm. something's gotta be wrong here.
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1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
not referring the snake -- the snake didn't sin. yeah, you heard that right. the snake was never issued any commandments to break, nor does it seem like he ate from tree himself. genesis 3 just says he's the most "subtle" of the wild animals. the most perceptive or sneeky. so he never disobeyed god, just spoke an opinion that was contrary to what god said.
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Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
wrong serpent.
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Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.
kind of a similar prophesy, don't you think?
We are talking post split here. My gardens usually have rocks. How small a rock does it have to be to decay? yes, but do gardens only have rocks? i know of very few plants that will grow on rocks alone. i'm not even sure moses and molds really count as plants, actually.
Ever hear of compost? Thats the name of the game in box gardening, decay! quote:
Main Entry: 1compost
Pronunciation: 'km-"pOst, esp British -"pst
Function: noun 1 : a mixture that consists largely of decayed organic matter and is used for fertilizing and conditioning land
Well we could say that, but I'd hardly call it murder to eat fruit from an orchard! how'd you like it if someone ate your genitalia?
Now he's in heaven, hardly all that mortal, I'd say. We'll have to disagree on whether Adam was meant to live forever or not. actually, there's a suprisingly lack of an afterlife at all in the old testament. the only place people are mentioned going is a place called "sheol" which means "grave." although, it is the origin of the word "hell."
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 198 by simple, posted 04-24-2005 1:46 AM | | simple has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1369 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 201 of 263 (201651)
04-24-2005 4:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 199 by simple
04-24-2005 1:56 AM
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Re: more book check.
That was what had to be done to save man. Now there are billions of us. no, the point of it was DESTROY MAN. because god regretted he'd made us. there's nothing about saving man at all. it's just that god could not in good concious destroy one perfect man along with the rest of the wicked ones, apparently. and then after acknowledging his mistake (according to him) of creating man, he acknowledges that it was alos a mistake to destroy them all. and promises never to do that again. which of course is contradicted by jesus and revelation, and that peter verse i posted... but you can't win 'em all.
"Mt 26:29 - But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. " all that, and you found one. good job! now stop making up the other stuff.
Jesus flew up to heaven, "ascended." which is similar to being born, apparently.
the angels fly. seraphim fly. but they have wings.
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Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
cherubim have wings too, and probably fly.
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Exd 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces [shall look] one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
arguably, elijah's chariot might have flown, but it seems to have just gotten sucked up in a whirlwind.
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2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
the serpents that terrorized the israelites in numbers flew. or rather jumped. the "flying" bit seems to be referring to type of snake attack... as for angels... i don't see anything about them flying... but maybe i've missed something.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 199 by simple, posted 04-24-2005 1:56 AM | | simple has replied |
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Dead Parrot
Member (Idle past 3371 days) Posts: 151 From: Wellington, NZ Joined: 04-13-2005
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Re: more book check.
no, the point of it was DESTROY MAN. because god regretted he'd made us. there's nothing about saving man at all. it's just that god could not in good concious destroy one perfect man along with the rest of the wicked ones, apparently. and then after acknowledging his mistake (according to him) of creating man, he acknowledges that it was alos a mistake to destroy them all. and promises never to do that again. Ah, but having knocked all the continents off thier legs the first time, he couldn't do it again anyway... As a thought, if the current laws of physics were fixed "at the fall", and the rainbow is a sign of God's promise not to annihilate us again (Excluding the events of Revelation, presumably) how did God stop rainbows forming between then and the flood?
Mat 27:5 And he went and hanged himself Luk 10:37 Go, and do thou likewise.
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Dead Parrot
Member (Idle past 3371 days) Posts: 151 From: Wellington, NZ Joined: 04-13-2005
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Re: changes
Well we could say that, but I'd hardly call it murder to eat fruit from an orchard! how'd you like it if someone ate your genitalia? Thanks for that thought, Arach. If I wake up screaming in the night I'm gonna blame you. I should also point out that a lot of seeds won't grow unless the fruit has been through someone's digestive system: It's one of the ways a species gets carried to a new area, and the seed is planted with a pile of, err, organic fertiliser. (Unless it's been eaten by Simple, in which case it emerges encased in a small non-decayed rock.)
Mat 27:5 And he went and hanged himself Luk 10:37 Go, and do thou likewise.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1369 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Re: changes
Thanks for that thought, Arach. If I wake up screaming in the night I'm gonna blame you. haha, you're welcome.
I should also point out that a lot of seeds won't grow unless the fruit has been through someone's digestive system: It's one of the ways a species gets carried to a new area, and the seed is planted with a pile of, err, organic fertiliser. i thought about mentioning that, as another point about how life is dependent on death. but i wanted to keep the matter, well... SIMPLE.
(Unless it's been eaten by Simple, in which case it emerges encased in a small non-decayed rock.) hahaha. no if *I* wake up screaming....
אָרַח
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1369 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Re: more book check.
Ah, but having knocked all the continents off thier legs the first time, he couldn't do it again anyway... well, he technically only promises never to do it again -- with a flood.
how did God stop rainbows forming between then and the flood? simple. he killed all the leprechauns.
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simple
Inactive Member
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no more flood
quote:
As a thought, if the current laws of physics were fixed "at the fall", and the rainbow is a sign of God's promise not to annihilate us again (Excluding the events of Revelation, presumably) how did God stop rainbows forming between then and the flood?
The rainbow, whether or not it existed pre flood, became a sign after the flood. Some think there were none, but how much do we know about the time to really know? Oh, it was a sign, that the world will not be again destroyed by water. There is a rebellion after the millenium, that we will put down for good with fire from heaven, before we land the city here forever. So those earthbound rebels will be destroyed with fire, as will the surface of the planet. No more sea, big mountains, pollution, etc. All new and ready for the merge, and eternity.
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simple
Inactive Member
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Re: more book check.
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That was what had to be done to save man. Now there are billions of us. no, the point of it was DESTROY MAN. because god regretted he'd made us
Come on now. He regretted they got so bad, yes, but he saved a few good ones, to make sure free will man endured. WE're still here. "and promises never to do that again." No more flood of water, no. Besiside, I don't think there will be all that many rebels who get stuck here for the big bake. "Jesus flew up to heaven, "ascended." which is similar to being born, apparently." I was at some births, and never yet saw a baby fly bodily off to heaven!
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seraphim fly. but they have wings.
The horses we ride down to conquer the world from the sky will fly too. It doesn't say they have wings.
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simple
Inactive Member
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testies
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Physics are overruled, and not at all applicable to a merged state. It is only one element in the equation, not even the most important one. no. take a physics class. you have no appreciation for the beauty of god's creation, let alone basic understand of it.
To have appriciation for how the merged universe will be, is to have appriciation to a much higher degree. This is only a limited, puny, shadow, or taste of the real macoy. Our physical realities will only be distant memories, with much better realities in place.
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theology doesn't apply to the spiritual? that's a good one.
What I've heard of theology and seminaries is that many are more like cemetaries for faith. A lot of mental work, but not much fire in the basement.
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i see nothing about a devil -- just a snake.
The deceiver. "Re 20:2 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, "
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i think the people who wrote it AND speak the language it was written probably have a better understanding of it then you then
The bible is a magic book, and can only be understood, as He shows us. This depends on the heart, not the language.
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so you deny that god says that sometimes false prophets of other religions are occasionally right?
Who cares? Should we waste time following their tales, to see if they hit it right the odd time?
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the bible says the will be destroyed. jesus say the will pass away. as in gone.
"And I John, saw the holy city..." So, John wasn't destroyed, as will not be anyone in heaven. Just the rebels after the millenium. We'll see the heavens depart as a scroll that is rolled up, and the new onews will be revealed! The merge. Physical, and spiritual, eternal. The physical only universe forever gone, and no more! The earth itself still here, as we see, now having no more sea, or high mountains. A "new" earth. Made new, that is, by a surface burn.
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and His holy city the real Jerusalem, or new Jerusalem, the holy mountain of God. It will came down from the sky, to stay here, the new center of the universe (as you will see as the new heavens are revealed)-Home of the Almight God! book, chapter, verse?
Rev 21, & 22
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future tense. the lion WILL eat straw, wolf lay down with lamb, etc. tell me, you think isaiah means these literally?
Absolutely! 'Nothing shall hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain'!
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, is the devil the most cursed wild animal? does he crawl around on his belly, and lick the ground?
What about the devils in the people from whom they were cast out? Spirits can come and go, and inhabit physical things, like a hitchiker. This is why God said 'get behind me satan', to peter, he was really talking to the devil speaking through peter. Or the king in the OT God talked to the devil through. Etc So the tool of the devil, perhaps his favorite creature, the serpent also got cursed, as well as the devil. Some say probably serpents could once fly! Not any more, on to their belly they did go.
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great. but the snake didn't lie. nor did he murder. cain was the first murderer
Yes, the devil possesed both.
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1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
look at that. god is a devil. hmm. something's gotta be wrong here
No, God controls hell! It is like His prison, and His rules are set up. He also alowed this spirit to do a certain needed job, stangely enough by being a lying spirit. Sometimes we are allowed to be tried, and tested by the devil, to see if we will believe him, or Him! There was a time when the devil still had access to heaven, to come before God. The new testament even says he accuses us day and night before God. Thank goodness He listens to our atorney, Jesus instead. He is cast to earth, and will be here personally, madder than a wet hornet, no longer able to access heaven soon.
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Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, wrong serpent
No, right one, as explained, the devil is a spirit, and worked in creatures, or people.
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yes, but do gardens only have rocks?
Some, usually, down there somewhere. Anyhow, I can't remember the point of all this garden rock stuff.
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Well we could say that, but I'd hardly call it murder to eat fruit from an orchard! how'd you like it if someone ate your genitalia?
No, I don't think of males that way. But plants are not wounded by taking their fruit, and a physical man would be to lose his balls.
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actually, there's a suprisingly lack of an afterlife at all in the old testament. the only place people are mentioned going is a place called "sheol" which means "grave." although, it is the origin of the word "hell."
Thank goodness for the new testament! When Jesus rose, those OT guys and gals rose up (somewhere around the same time anyhow) and some say, went to heaven. This would be why 'the dead in christ will rise first, then, we which are alive..' Once the new testies rise from the grave, to meet their spirits, which, the OT folks (if this idea is right) already did, then all that's left is us, so we bodily rise up, to be 'changed' (spiritual/physical eternal bodies).
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simple
Inactive Member
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testies
quote:
Physics are overruled, and not at all applicable to a merged state. It is only one element in the equation, not even the most important one. no. take a physics class. you have no appreciation for the beauty of god's creation, let alone basic understand of it.
To have appriciation for how the merged universe will be, is to have appriciation to a much higher degree. This is only a limited, puny, shadow, or taste of the real macoy. Our physical realities will only be distant memories, with much better realities in place.
quote:
theology doesn't apply to the spiritual? that's a good one.
What I've heard of theology and seminaries is that many are more like cemetaries for faith. A lot of mental work, but not much fire in the basement.
quote:
i see nothing about a devil -- just a snake.
The deceiver. "Re 20:2 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, "
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i think the people who wrote it AND speak the language it was written probably have a better understanding of it then you then
The bible is a magic book, and can only be understood, as He shows us. This depends on the heart, not the language.
quote:
so you deny that god says that sometimes false prophets of other religions are occasionally right?
Who cares? Should we waste time following their tales, to see if they hit it right the odd time?
quote:
the bible says the will be destroyed. jesus say the will pass away. as in gone.
"And I John, saw the holy city..." So, John wasn't destroyed, as will not be anyone in heaven. Just the rebels after the millenium. We'll see the heavens depart as a scroll that is rolled up, and the new onews will be revealed! The merge. Physical, and spiritual, eternal. The physical only universe forever gone, and no more! The earth itself still here, as we see, now having no more sea, or high mountains. A "new" earth. Made new, that is, by a surface burn.
quote:
and His holy city the real Jerusalem, or new Jerusalem, the holy mountain of God. It will came down from the sky, to stay here, the new center of the universe (as you will see as the new heavens are revealed)-Home of the Almight God! book, chapter, verse?
Rev 21, & 22
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future tense. the lion WILL eat straw, wolf lay down with lamb, etc. tell me, you think isaiah means these literally?
Absolutely! 'Nothing shall hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain'!
quote:
, is the devil the most cursed wild animal? does he crawl around on his belly, and lick the ground?
What about the devils in the people from whom they were cast out? Spirits can come and go, and inhabit physical things, like a hitchiker. This is why God said 'get behind me satan', to peter, he was really talking to the devil speaking through peter. Or the king in the OT God talked to the devil through. Etc So the tool of the devil, perhaps his favorite creature, the serpent also got cursed, as well as the devil. Some say probably serpents could once fly! Not any more, on to their belly they did go.
quote:
great. but the snake didn't lie. nor did he murder. cain was the first murderer
Yes, the devil possesed both.
quote:
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
look at that. god is a devil. hmm. something's gotta be wrong here
No, God controls hell! It is like His prison, and His rules are set up. He also alowed this spirit to do a certain needed job, stangely enough by being a lying spirit. Sometimes we are allowed to be tried, and tested by the devil, to see if we will believe him, or Him! There was a time when the devil still had access to heaven, to come before God. The new testament even says he accuses us day and night before God. Thank goodness He listens to our atorney, Jesus instead. He is cast to earth, and will be here personally, madder than a wet hornet, no longer able to access heaven soon.
quote:
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, wrong serpent
No, right one, as explained, the devil is a spirit, and worked in creatures, or people.
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yes, but do gardens only have rocks?
Some, usually, down there somewhere. Anyhow, I can't remember the point of all this garden rock stuff.
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Well we could say that, but I'd hardly call it murder to eat fruit from an orchard! how'd you like it if someone ate your genitalia?
No, I don't think of males that way. But plants are not wounded by taking their fruit, and a physical man would be to lose his balls.
quote:
actually, there's a suprisingly lack of an afterlife at all in the old testament. the only place people are mentioned going is a place called "sheol" which means "grave." although, it is the origin of the word "hell."
Thank goodness for the new testament! When Jesus rose, those OT guys and gals rose up (somewhere around the same time anyhow) and some say, went to heaven. This would be why 'the dead in christ will rise first, then, we which are alive..' Once the new testies rise from the grave, to meet their spirits, which, the OT folks (if this idea is right) already did, then all that's left is us, so we bodily rise up, to be 'changed' (spiritual/physical eternal bodies).
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wmscott
Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: 12-19-2001
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Considering how much you have bragged up the JPS I am surprised on this error
Dear Arachnophilia;
[securely or solidly fixed in place]-the word "solid" is in it. notice that? as in "not gasseous." it's not gonna blow away. but let's examine your metaphors. . . . is a sail a solid, a liquid, a gas, or a plasma? You always get hung up on this point of roots, a compounded word has a different meaning than the root word which is why the writer used it instead of the root word. Notice also the definition stated "securely or solidly" which should be a clue on the meaning used. My point on the sail was that it being made of cloth, it is not rigid and yet it can be firmly secured. My point was that even non rigid things can be made firm without being made rigid, to show what it is a figure of speech. But you are still hung up in my little illustration, yes gases can be made firm too, by being bonded to surfaces, encapsulated and other processes. So even humans can make gases firm. God made the heavens firm in that he made them to last. To try to say that the Bible literally states that the sky is metal, is like the YECs who prowl through science books looking for things to try to support YEC. They grab a phrase here or there while ignoring the fact that they are taking it out of context and that their interpretation of it runs counter to what the author is trying to say. You are taking a phrase and a poetic expression out of context and misinterpreting in a way that conflicts with the overall biblical description of the subject.
if i said "firm like a rock" what do you think i mean? what quality am i expressing? am i saying it'll last for ever? or am i saying it's hard?
Actually lasting forever does spring to mind first. (Deuteronomy 32:4) "The Rock, perfect is his activity," In the Bible God is frequently referred to as being a rock, this doesn't mean he is a literal rock, it is referring to the fact that he is eternal and unchanging.
hi, welcome to hebrew poetry 101. it uses something called parallelism. it takes two (often opposite) things, and compares them. israel to judah. sun to moon. rivers to oceans. sky to ground. ...casting to smithing. see? it's using one as a similarity to the others. in this case, "cast" is used to compliment "stretch." see how that works? both are referring to metal. and that's only important bit. Yes that is my point, it is Hebrew poetry, it is not a literal description! You accept that both the casting and stretching are figurative, yet you insist that a literal metal is being referred to. The reason for that is simple, you are clinging to your belief that the Bible teaches primitive thoughts of man and is not the Word of God. This is part of the justification for your belief system, to see this point would put a crack in your foundation, so you refuse to see it because you can't afford to. I am trying to make you see something that is in the center of one of your blind spots, unless you shift your viewpoint a bit, you will never see it.
[The Jews were not Babylonians]- really now? Gen 11:31 And Terah took Abram his son,. . . and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; Wow! Good point! But no, that still doesn't make the Jews Babylonians any more than Americans are British. The point of Gen 11:31 is that they left Ur and became a separate people with their own identity and beliefs which were different from the Chaldeans.
textual evidence indicates that genesis was written around 600 bc, under babylonian exile. genesis 1 is babylonian in origin. genesis 2 is babylonian in origin. genesis 6-9 is babylonian. genesis 11 is babylonian. getting the picture here? a lot of the stuff in genesis is DIRECT commentary on their babylonian captors, and plays off their stories. this is observable to anyone who's read genesis, and has read some babylonian mythology. . . . Gen 36:31 "And these [are] the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel."
it's used conversationally, not prophetically. it just mentions that edom had kings before israel did, which means that it was written after israel had kings. The independent accounts that Moses put together in writing the book of Genesis included the oral or written records handed down through the Flood, it is from these early accounts that the Babylonians stories draw their information. The Babylonian accounts have been changed, but the common source is still obvious as you pointed out. Gen 36:31 isn't a problem, it was written by Moses who also wrote (Genesis 35:11) ". . .and kings will come out of your loins." (Deuteronomy 28:36) "Jehovah will march you and your king whom you will set up over you . . ." (Deuteronomy 17:14-20) "When you eventually come into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, and you have taken possession of it and have dwelt in it, and you have said, 'Let me set a king over myself like all the nations who are round about me'; you should without fail set over yourself a king whom Jehovah your God will choose. From among your brothers you should set a king over yourself. You will not be allowed to put over yourself a foreigner who is not your brother. Only he should not increase horses for himself, nor make the people go back to Egypt in order to increase horses; whereas Jehovah has said to YOU, 'YOU must never go back again by this way.' He should also not multiply wives for himself, that his heart may not turn aside; nor should he increase silver and gold for himself very much. And it must occur that when he takes his seat on the throne of his kingdom, he must write in a book for himself a copy of this law from that which is in the charge of the priests, the Levites. "And it must continue with him, and he must read in it all the days of his life, in order that he may learn to fear Jehovah his God so as to keep all the words of this law and these regulations by doing them; that his heart may not exalt itself above his brothers and that he may not turn aside from the commandment to the right or to the left, in order that he may lengthen his days upon his kingdom, he and his sons in the midst of Israel." Moses knew that Israel would one day have kings, it was common knowledge to him. Also consider that no one thought that is was an error, until people began to doubt God' word and started to look for excuses not to believe.
[(Proverbs 8:27-28) "When he prepared the heavens . . . the cloud masses above."]- your bible consistently translates these words wrong, doesn't it? you think that might be because they're trying to make this idea seem more rational? here's what the jps says: "When He made the heavens above firm, And the fountains of the deep gushed forth" look at that! it's using... the same words again. isn't it? hardly an explicit statement, this is a TRANSLATION issue. Considering how much you have bragged up the JPS I am surprised that they have this wrong. Look at what Strong states on the Hebrew word used in this verse. Strong's Number: 7834 Transliterated: shachaq Phonetic: shakh'-ak Text: from 7833; a powder (as beaten small): by analogy, a thin vapor; by extension, the firmament: --cloud, small dust, heaven, sky. And as shown by Psalm 148:4 the Hebrews viewed the waters above as still being there, and as shown by many scriptures, they knew water came from the clouds, hence the water above was the clouds.
[(Psalm 148:4) "waters that are above the heavens"]- we're talking infinite here. it didn't disappear with the flood. and even if it DID, where do you suppose the flood went to when it was done? and look, if heavens are referring to clouds ... why is there water above them? kinda inconsistent here. Not inconsistent, the clouds are above the Hebrew heaven, they are the water above. As to where the water went, it is still here, the sealevel was lower in the Ice Age.
genesis 1 ends at about 2:4. they're two separate (and contradictory) accounts. one is not an elaboration of the other. they are the same length and the same level of detail. The two accounts don't conflict. Don't you think Moses; or who ever you think actually wrote it, wouldn't have noticed? Why are all of these 'contradictions' only apparent to modern critics and were invisible to earlier readers? I mean if I was the complier of the Genesis account, and I mean for it to be interpreted as you do, I certainly would have corrected the 'contradiction'. The fact that this error wasn't corrected despite how plainly obvious it would have been, can only mean that it isn't an error. And the only way they could not have viewed it as an error is if the days referred to, were not literal. The ancient Hebrews had to of viewed the creative days as a poetic description rather than a literal six days.
[If you consider that fact that life was progressively created over the length of these long periods of time, any perceived conflict with the fossil record disappears.]- also not true. we still have ORDER. plants before sun, birds before terrextrial animals, and according to gen 2, man before plants and animals. those ALL contradict (not only each other but) the fossil record. I meant all of the major conflicts with the fossil record. Most of the other contradicts are problems of your interpretation and are not real. The Hebrews certainly knew that you can't grow plants without light, ever wonder how they understood the account? Obviously your interpretation is flawed. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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