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Author Topic:   YEC approaches to empirical investigation
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 260 of 303 (261916)
11-21-2005 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
11-21-2005 10:44 AM


Debates seldom happen here
No, Faith, the problem is that one group seeks supernatural explanations for phenomena while the other group insists on natural explanations. These two approaches to knowledge are utterly irreconcilable. That is why the moderators of this board often must eschew the usual rules of debate, because in the debates that take place here we are forced to accept such things as virgin births, global floods, fairies in the sky, demons in the ground, etc. etc. as plausible. Debate is usually based on logic and evidence, but in this case we are forced to give logic equal weight with illogic and evidence equal weight with fairy tales.

In a real debate, no one ever has to agree to accept an opponent's premise. That's what makes a debate a debate, for crying out loud! In a real debate, if the opponent poses a premise, the proponent is free to challenge the premise. It is then incumbent upon the opponent to present evidence and/or reasoned logic to support his or her premise. In a real debate, such evidence and/or logic cannot appeal to non-evidence-based notions of what the supernatural world might be like.

Thus, real debates don't take place here, at least whenever a YEC is involved.


"We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."-George W. Bush, Gulfport, Miss.,
Sept. 20, 2005.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 10:44 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by arachnophilia, posted 11-21-2005 11:27 AM berberry has responded
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 11:52 AM berberry has responded

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 303 (261929)
11-21-2005 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by arachnophilia
11-21-2005 11:27 AM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
You're just stating the case differently, arach:

quote:
their premise is, as faith put it, that their reading of the word of god trumps all evidence, science, logic, reason, and other belief.

But the so-called "word of god" is, studied dispassionately, nothing more than a fairy tale. You can no more find hard evidence to support the word of god than you can the word of the Brothers Grimm.


"We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."-George W. Bush, Gulfport, Miss.,
Sept. 20, 2005.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by arachnophilia, posted 11-21-2005 11:27 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by arachnophilia, posted 11-21-2005 11:41 AM berberry has not yet responded
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 12:47 PM berberry has not yet responded

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 303 (261990)
11-21-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
11-21-2005 11:52 AM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
Faith writes me:

quote:
The premise being discussed is that it occurred because God said it did, and that whatever can be known about it from the Bible must be taken into account.

That's the crux of the issue right there. Nothing can be known if the source is only a book. The book can be studied in scientific ways (see higher criticism), but most of the stories and episodes within it can't. Similarly, Shakespeare's Hamlet can be studied in scientific ways (as it has been extensively; the story of the play's text presents a fascinating journey into the history of the printed word, if you should ever care to look it up), but there's no way one could, for instance, ever prove or disprove whether the ghost of King Hamlet really visited Elsinore on that fateful night. Appeals to ghosts are no different in this respect from appeals to god.

So while we can learn a lot about human history from the bible and about the history of printing from Hamlet, the bible is no more help in scientifically studying god than is Hamlet in scientfically studying ghosts. No matter how many written words you can find that talk about god or ghosts, both belong to the supernatural and thus neither can be scientifically studied.

You and other YECs choose to look to the bible to assist you in studying god. That's fine, but don't pretend that you're engaging in science. Science is based on what can be observed directly, not on what can be observed in a book.


"We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."-George W. Bush, Gulfport, Miss.,
Sept. 20, 2005.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 11:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:29 PM berberry has responded

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 303 (261998)
11-21-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
11-21-2005 1:29 PM


Re: Debates seldom happen here
I must extend a hearty thank you to you, Faith, you are demonstrating my point most admirably. Every assertion you make in this post is an appeal to the supernatural.

quote:
You may regard it as "only a book," sure, but it is in fact God's own revelation to humanity you are dismissing so lightly.

Give me some evidence! Simply saying that the bible is God's revelation isn't enough for science. You must present evidence. And remember, evidence is not just words printed on a page. If a printed page constitutes evidence, I can prove that King Hamlet's ghost existed.

quote:
God made the physical world. God wrote the Bible.

Evidence, Faith, evidence!


"We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job. That's what I'm telling you."-George W. Bush, Gulfport, Miss.,
Sept. 20, 2005.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 11-21-2005 1:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

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