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Author
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Topic: Can science refute the "god hypothesis" beyond all reasonable doubt?
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 33 of 310 (485943)
10-13-2008 12:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by Straggler
10-12-2008 2:30 PM
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Re: Invisible to Science
Hi Straggler Since the argument is about two totaly different things I don't see where much headway can be made.
Straggler writes: The question I ask is to what degree do atheists or deists consider the findings of science to support their view. Or, more to the point, do atheists and deists consider their views to be derived from science and if so is such thinking valid? My personal belief's were brought about by my reading a KJV Bible. I later went to college and studied Hebrew and Greek language so I could examine the original texts as close as we can get to them. Being able to understand what the Hebrew words say added to my belief. I then came to EvC some 19 months ago to expand my knowledge base. I have learned many things in my journey here contrary to what many may think. What I have learned here has made me more sure of what I believe. I have stated my God hypotheis on more than one occasion. God = everything that ever was, is, or ever will be. I have no visible proof other than what you can see with your eyes. Science begins with just such an entity. With no scientific explanation for that entity. There is no visible proof other than what you can see with your eyes. Science then proceeds to explain how we got from there to here. In many instances it does a very good job. Along the way many good thing's have been produced for the betterment of mankind. I have no problem with science or the accomplishments of science. I do have a problem with being told the scientific entity is different from my unscientific entity. Rahvin has told me that entity always was. cavediver has told me it just is. Others have said there was no time that it did not exist. Son Goku and cavediver has told me that everything that is, was contained in this entity at T=10 -43. Everything I believe is founded on "In the Beginning God". Everything Science teaches is founded on a point "we know nothing about"...It is nonsensal to even ask about it. My question then is, how can something that starts out with, everything that ever was, is or ever will be refute the existence of God (everything that ever was, is or will be)? Straggler the answer to your question, "Can science refute the God hypothesis beyond all reasonable doubt is, it would be impossible. Because at the moment science declares there is a God. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Straggler, posted 10-12-2008 2:30 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 39 of 310 (485955)
10-13-2008 8:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 34 by Straggler
10-13-2008 3:20 PM
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Re-Wooly God
Straggler writes: Hmmmm. If science were to consist of poorly defined concepts and meaningless labels plugged into the gaps in our knowledge on the basis that any answer is better than no answer at all, then your rather woolly "God = everything that ever was, is, or ever will be" would be a valid scientific conclusion. A conclusion is what you come too after examining the evidence. I said an entity that is everything that ever was, is or will be is what science starts with. cavediver had this to say Here cavediver writes: All I am saying is that at a particular early time, space is the size of a pea. At that time there is no extra empty space - it is not that everything has been squashed into one small pea-sized corner of the Universe. Space itself is the size of a pea. So anything in space must be confined to that size. Son Goku had this to say concerning the entity I am refering too.
Son Goku writes: ICANT writes: At T=0+ expansion began which created space, time, gravity and everything that it took to create all the things that we see in the universe and the things we can not see.
This is wrong. Nothing is known about T=0 or the short period after it. The earliest thing we know is that the universe was expanding and was hot and dense. This can be found Here According to the evidence I have presented there was an entity sometime after T=0 that contained everything there ever was, is and will ever be. Conclusion. Science starts with an entity that is everything that ever was, is and ever will be. That is a God according to the definition of my God. So how does science that starts with a god refute my God hypothesis? I am very confident in my God hypothesis since science starts with a god and can not refute my God hypothesis without refuting it's own god. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by Straggler, posted 10-13-2008 3:20 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 50 of 310 (485988)
10-14-2008 12:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by Straggler
10-14-2008 8:56 AM
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Re-Wooly God
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: If you want to define your God in terms of the physical universe then that is up to you. I did not define my God in the terms of the physical universe. I described my God as everything that ever was, is, and will ever be. I do not limit God to this universe, it is a small speck in eternity.
Exod 3:14 (KJV) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. God Himself claimed to be everything there is.
Colo 1:17 (KJV) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Everything exists by His power.
Straggler writes: Then we might be getting somewhere. Straggler we will never get anywhere. Everyone here wants God proven beyond a shadow of doubt. I want the scientific god, entity, or whatever you want to call that thing that expanded into what we see and call the universe. Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I say: In the beginning God (everything that ever was, is or will ever be) created the heaven and the earth. Science says: In the beginning that hot, dense little thing, that was everything that ever was, is or will ever be (that we don't know anything about) expanded to be the universe we see today. Therefore, science confirms in the beginning everything that ever was, is or will ever be is responsible for the universe being here. This confirms my belief that "In the beginning God". Since there is nothing to debate I rest my case. You or anyone else my have the last word. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by Straggler, posted 10-14-2008 8:56 AM | | Straggler has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 52 by Straggler, posted 10-14-2008 12:30 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 73 of 310 (486017)
10-14-2008 7:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Straggler
10-14-2008 5:46 PM
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Re: Answers
Straggler writes: Yes and no. Everyone does want answers I agree. The most important questions listed in order of importance to me are: I will supply the answers my God gives me. Why do I exist? To seek after and find God and serve Him. What is the origin of life? God created man in His image He also created all creatures. When I die then what? The judgment. Then rewards or punishment. My choice. What is the origin of the universe? God created the heavens and the earth. The answers science gives me are: Why do I exist? Because of a process of mutation and natural selection. What is the origin of life? We don't know, we are working on that one. When I die then what? Your dead. What is the origin of the universe? We don't know, we are working on that one.
Straggler writes: Theism often seems to me to be as much about a need for answers that do not exist or are as yet unknown as anything else. Unknown to whom? You don't seem to understand that a theist who believes in God, has been born again washed in the blood of the lamb and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption does not have any unanswered questions that makes a difference. He/She has also received all the evidence needed to support his/her faith. Other theist probably need many answers. On the other hand science comes up short of answering the important questions of life as far as I am concerned. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Straggler, posted 10-14-2008 5:46 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 76 of 310 (486020)
10-14-2008 9:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 74 by onifre
10-14-2008 8:22 PM
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Re: Answers
Hi oni,
onifre writes: Yeah I think we got the premise, but what say you of the lack of evidence to support your ideology? I think thats what the OP wants to find out. I gave support for my position in Message 50 onifre writes: Unknown as in factual unknowns, not faith based knowns. Of course we understand that you believe the hype, but if factual evidence is required for the origin of the universe, and a complete mathematical theory is also required, then currently it's an unknown by those standards. I don't believe in hype. Do you have some factual evidence concerning the origin of the universe that I don't have?
onifre writes: Again we understand the subjective interpretation placed on scriptures by it's devout followers but, if verifiable evidence Sorry but you do not understand. According to your posts you think it is foolishness.
1Cor 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. You seek evidence. But as CS told you that would eliminate the need for faith.
Hebr 11:6 (KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Faith does not require evidence if it does it is not faith. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by onifre, posted 10-14-2008 8:22 PM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 78 by onifre, posted 10-15-2008 12:41 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 92 of 310 (486043)
10-15-2008 11:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by onifre
10-15-2008 12:41 AM
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Re: Answers
onifre writes: I think you missed my point. Current cosmological models (aka factual evidence) limits us to the moments after the BB. I understand that at the moment science has no evidence for anything prior to T=10 -43. I know there are those trying to find evidence. But since that was a time the temperature was a trillion degrees what evidence could still exist. Concerning your "cosmological models (aka factual evidence)". I would like to see some of those facts discussed. The reason I asked the question was because you had said, "but if factual evidence is required for the origin of the universe," concerning my faith based evidence. So when it comes to factual evidence of the origin of the universe where is science's evidence? Lets stay on a level playing field don't require more of faith than you do of science.
onifre writes: Also, it is a personal subjective interpretation because as Catholic Sci said, his understanding of science does not in anyway interfere with his religious beliefs, yours does, No my understanding of science does not interfere with my religious beliefs. Your understanding of science disagrees with my religious beliefs. I have very little understanding of what CS believes and practices. But in message Message 73 I said:
You don't seem to understand that a theist who believes in God, has been born again washed in the blood of the lamb and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption does not have any unanswered questions that makes a difference. He/She has also received all the evidence needed to support his/her faith. This is not just any religious person, or just anybody that claims to be christian. This is a specific person that has met certain requirements, that make them a son or daughter of God.
Roma 12:3 (KJV) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Everyone here seems to think the faith we talk about is something that comes from within a person. Saving faith comes from God. I only have the measure of faith that has been given to me by God. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by onifre, posted 10-15-2008 12:41 AM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 107 by onifre, posted 10-15-2008 6:27 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 94 of 310 (486050)
10-15-2008 12:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Agobot
10-15-2008 4:38 AM
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Re: Answers
Agobot writes: The one thing i admit i admire most about christianity is the structure of churches and the grand feeling of peace and calm inside them. It does give you a very weird feeling of disconnection with the outside world and reality Agobot the buildings you are talking about is the place where the church meets, they are not the church.
Agobot writes: Sadly, I am unable to find anything even remotely related to reality, life and science in the ancient books. They say most religions started by their leaders taking psychedelic plants, psychedelic mushrooms, etc There are 34,000 + religions in the world. I don't know how many was started as you say. The one I follow was started by a man walking by the sea of Galilee calling 4 fishermen to follow Him and become fishers of men. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Agobot, posted 10-15-2008 4:38 AM | | Agobot has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 95 by Coyote, posted 10-15-2008 12:54 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 96 of 310 (486052)
10-15-2008 1:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Straggler
10-15-2008 9:37 AM
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Re: Answers
Hi Straggler
Straggler writes: I do understand that this is what you and other theists think they know. This is exactly what I meant when I implied that many theists cannot cope with ignorance and have a need for answers regadless of whether any valid answers actually exist or not. It seems to me that theists would much rather have an answer that cannot be demonstrated to be valid or reliable than simply and honestly state that some things are extremely difficult to find out or even have no meanigful answer available. What may be a valid answer to me may not be a valid answer to you. I can not prove to you that God exists. But to me it is real. I can not prove to you that birds sing me to sleep every night, or that I hear other strange sounds. The other morning I was hearing a sound like I have heard on shows that had a submarine in it when they do the sounding. I can hear these noises when it is quite and when it is noisy. But not all the time. There is no way I can prove I hear these sounds to you. But that does not make them cease to exist. They are real. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Straggler, posted 10-15-2008 9:37 AM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 104 of 310 (486069)
10-15-2008 4:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 97 by Straggler
10-15-2008 1:39 PM
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Re: Answers
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: On what basis do you decide an answer is valid? The Word of God with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Straggler writes: Which tells us only that you believe in God. Nobody is questioning your sincerity. I merely question the validity of your conclusion. To be able to decide the validity of my conclusions wouldn't you need to know everything those conclusions are based on?
Straggler writes: If they do actually exist then they can be detected. My hearing Dr. would disagree with you.
Straggler writes: But I see no basis on which you are able determine whether or not any conclsions arrived at by anyone, no matter how mad, are valid or not. As long as they believe their claim as strongly as you believe yours both are equal by your standards of evidence. I understand this to say anyone that believes their dogma as much as I do mine, is equal to mine. I agree. Just because I believe something that does not make it right. Just because you or anyone else believes something that does not make it right. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 97 by Straggler, posted 10-15-2008 1:39 PM | | Straggler has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 151 of 310 (486254)
10-17-2008 6:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 136 by Blue Jay
10-17-2008 1:17 AM
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Re: Science and Atheism
Hi Bluejay,
Bluejay writes: In leaving God, you stand to lose a whole lot if you’re wrong (Pasqual had something to say about this, I think). But, sometimes, I feel like it might be worth it, just to remove all the pressure of thinking that the Almighty Lord of the universe, who can cause torment beyond my imagining, is watching my every move. I am sorry to hear that is the kind of God you have been serving. You like Pasqual have assumed that a belief in God is sufficient to receive rewards from God. To set the record straight you can believe in God, feed the poor, heal the sick, house the homeless, go to church 7 days a week, study, and pray constantly and still not receive any reward from God. Jesus told the Pharisees, a very religious group of people:
John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. The devils believe and tremble. They will spend eternity separated from God. There will be many when they stand in judgment who will say, "Lord Lord did not we do many wonderful works in thy name", Jesus will say, "depart from me, ye that work iniquity". Matthew 7:22, 23. Jesus told Nicodemus that to see the kingdom of God, "you must be born again". He explains in John 3:1-18. So accepting that there is a God or gods is only the beginning. Why do you feel like you are under pressure? Jay I met Jesus 1 month before my 10th birthday. I have never been afraid of anything, sickness, death, proverty, etc., and I have never wanted for anything. Why should I be afraid of what God might see? He has given me eternal life, I will never perish. But God does not watch me. He does not have too. He stood at the beginning and viewed the end, so He knew everything before He created mankind. He counted the cost and was willing to pay the price for my disobedience. It makes no difference what decision you make He already knows what you are going to do. He left it up to you to make your own choice.
Bluejay writes: I go through times when it feels like science has illuminated all the frontiers already. You see science as illuminating everything. I see science as illuminating many things that God has told me in His Word. I see science as making great strides that benefit mankind. In technology, and medicine espically. But it does not answer the most important questions that I have. Why am I here? What is the origin of the universe? What is the origin of life? Because science can't answer those questions my faith is even made stronger. I am convinced God exists because science requires one. The accepted theory requires a beginning. I am told that beginning was a hot little thing that contained everything there ever was, is or ever will be. Nothing exists outside of this little thing that has expanded into what we see today, and the things we do not see. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 136 by Blue Jay, posted 10-17-2008 1:17 AM | | Blue Jay has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 153 of 310 (486257)
10-17-2008 6:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 152 by Agobot
10-17-2008 6:49 PM
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Re: Science and Atheism
Hi Agobot,
Agobot writes: whoever lead you to believe there is evidence that there could be absolutely nothing out there, has just brain-washed you in a pseudo-scientifical way I am far from brain washed. I said I had been told not that I believe it. But since science will not admit that there is the possibility of something being out there it can not refute the "God hypothesis", because it does not exist. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 152 by Agobot, posted 10-17-2008 6:49 PM | | Agobot has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 155 of 310 (486262)
10-17-2008 7:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 107 by onifre
10-15-2008 6:27 PM
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Re: Answers
Hi Oni,
Onifre writes: The OP is clear, how do we know that the God Hypothesis is even a valid hypothesis? The OP actually says Message 1 sentence 1.
Is it possible for science to refute the "god hypothesis" beyond all reasonable doubt? That is the reason I asked, How can science that starts with a god refute my God hypothesis? The only thing I put forth concerning my God was that He was everything that had ever been, is, or ever will be. (That does not leave anything out.) I gave no details of how He accomplished anything. I then put forth the hot little thing at T=10 -43 which is said to be everything that ever was, is, or ever will be. There is nothing outside of it. (That does not leave anything out.) I have not discussed where this hot little thing came from only that it existed at T=10 -43 . So I ask the question again. How can science that starts out with a god refute my God? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by onifre, posted 10-15-2008 6:27 PM | | onifre has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 158 of 310 (486268)
10-17-2008 8:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 157 by onifre
10-17-2008 8:12 PM
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Re: Answers
Hi Oni,
Onifre writes: Yes but the details is what we want. Can science refute the details? But Straggler said he did not want to discuss origins here.
Onifre writes: Science does not start off with a God. Unless you have YOUR OWN type of science now too??? Everything that ever was, is, or ever will be was present at T=10 -43. That fits my definition of a god. I have heard it called existence, pure energy and eternal existence. So what would you call it? You can have the last word as I will not address this again in this thread. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 157 by onifre, posted 10-17-2008 8:12 PM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 159 by onifre, posted 10-17-2008 8:47 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 162 of 310 (486274)
10-17-2008 9:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 159 by onifre
10-17-2008 8:47 PM
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Re: Answers
Hi Oni,
Onifre writes: However, IMO once you give human emotions to that energy, Neither My God or the hot little thing could have human emotions they are not human.
Onifre writes: or say that it had a hand in the creation of things (i.e. matter, planets, organisms etc, etc...), then we can debate the facts and include science. Since they both are all those things and there are very few facts what would we debate? We would also have to do it in another thread. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by onifre, posted 10-17-2008 8:47 PM | | onifre has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 164 of 310 (486277)
10-17-2008 10:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 163 by Blue Jay
10-17-2008 10:38 PM
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Re: Science and Atheism
Hi Jay,
Bluejay writes: And, by the way, it's spelled "Pascal": where did you get that stupid and utterly incorrect spelling?  My fingers aren't seeing too well tonight.
Bluejay writes: Does anybody see any reason for me to feel like I am under pressure? Yes and I am sorry. If you will e-mail me I will see if I can help. Percy will fry both of us if we try here. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 163 by Blue Jay, posted 10-17-2008 10:38 PM | | Blue Jay has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 165 by Blue Jay, posted 10-17-2008 10:56 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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