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Author Topic:   Thermodynamics
Jordo86
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 159 (186724)
02-19-2005 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by JonF
02-19-2005 8:57 AM


I would have thought that the fact that they believe that a worldwide flood occured with Noah in an ark, that they would be less likely to be uniformitarians. But hey, you debate them so youd have a better idea than I. But anyways we are getting off topic. If theres anything anyone else would like to say about the thermodynamic laws in closing i would love to hear it. (Basically summarize everything you'v said, but only if you guys have time and can be bothered)

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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 152 of 159 (186725)
02-19-2005 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Jordo86
02-19-2005 9:01 AM


quote:
There are several types of science, and the one im addressing is operational science
So what are the others? If you don't know, how do you know if there are several?
maybe you mean like this?
http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/macinnis/story.htm
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 19 February 2005 09:14 AM

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 153 of 159 (186740)
02-19-2005 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Jordo86
02-19-2005 8:03 AM


Jordo86 writes:
Now correct me if im wrong but i remember reading somewhere (this is about 2 years ago) that they have found fossilised trees spanning several of these layers. I dont have any links or anything sorry because this was in a book i saw in the school library, and all this talk of layers made me remember it. Now how does anyone explain this?
Creationists call them polystrate fossils, while geologists commonly refer to them as fossil forests or in situ trees. Both Creationists and geologists explain them pretty much the same way: they were buried quickly in time periods ranging from less than a day (e.g., a hurricane or volcano) to decades (e.g., a river basin's flood plain).
Creationists believe polystrate fossils were created during the year of Noah's flood. This hypothesis makes several predictions that can be tested:
  • Polystrate fossils should date to the same age.
    Geologists have discovered that polystrate fossils date to a wide range of ages, from hundreds of millions of years ago of the Pennsylvania layer to hundreds of years for Mount St. Helen's previous erruption.
  • Layers of polystrate fossils should not be found one above the other.
    There are sites where multiple soil horizons, one above the other, all include polystrate fossils.
  • The distribution of types of trees should be by geographical region alone and not be correlated with traditional geologic stratigraphy and tree evolution.
    The distribution of tree types is found to correlate with geologic layers and tree evolution. For example, lycopod trees only appear in Carboniferous period layers, but not later layers, and this is true all around the globe. The type of trees of which cypress is a reprentative cannot be found until Cretaceous layers, and this is also true all around the globe.
There's a lot of information about this on the web. For example, see"Polystrate" Fossils for a fairly non-technical description, or there's"Polystrate" Tree Fossils for those already pretty familiar with the geological literature. A Google of "polystrate fossils" will return a mix of Creationist and scientific sites.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Jordo86, posted 02-19-2005 8:03 AM Jordo86 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by AdminNosy, posted 02-19-2005 10:54 AM Percy has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 154 of 159 (186743)
02-19-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Percy
02-19-2005 10:29 AM


T o p i c !
With such a nice clear topic title like "Thermodynamics" why would be get into tree fossils? Let's not let a tidy topic trend to tumbled talk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Percy, posted 02-19-2005 10:29 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Percy, posted 02-19-2005 12:25 PM AdminNosy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 155 of 159 (186766)
02-19-2005 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by AdminNosy
02-19-2005 10:54 AM


Re: T o p i c !
Don't worry, I have the topic well in mind. Jordo felt comfortable enough with the answers about 2LOT to move the discussion forward to consideration of 1LOT. The question became how we knew 1LOT held at and before the Big Bang, and the answer was that we didn't. This led to a couple posts describing how theory is only a reflection of observations of the natural world, which led to descriptions of how hypotheses are tested by observation using Noah's flood and polystrate fossils as examples. Once Jordo thinks he agrees, or at least thinks he understands the point even if he doesn't agree with it, then I was going to tie it back in to 1LOT and the Big Bang.
I actually like where this thread has gotten to a lot. While the topic is thermodynamics, the forum is [forum=-11], which hopefully justifies a diversion into why 1LOT is still science even though we don't know if it applies at the Big Bang. The manner in which Jordo is raising these issues makes this thread somewhat epistemological, and hopefully a brief digression into how we know what we think we know will prove helpful.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by AdminNosy, posted 02-19-2005 1:45 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 158 by Jordo86, posted 02-20-2005 8:21 AM Percy has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 156 of 159 (186778)
02-19-2005 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Percy
02-19-2005 12:25 PM


Re: T o p i c !
Too clever by half! Why too clever for me to argue with. I hope everyone else can keep that in mind too.

This message is a reply to:
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Jordo86
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 159 (186904)
02-20-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by AdminNosy
02-19-2005 1:45 PM


Re: T o p i c !
Yeah thats why i titled it "Thermodynamics", i was hoping it would move from the second law to the first (though it covered more than i hoped for). Its been very educational, thanks guys for your patience. Im pretty satisfied with this topic for now.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Brad McFall, posted 07-09-2005 9:29 AM Jordo86 has not replied

  
Jordo86
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 159 (186905)
02-20-2005 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Percy
02-19-2005 12:25 PM


Unless theres anything more youd like to discuss of course

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 159 of 159 (222791)
07-09-2005 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Jordo86
02-20-2005 8:17 AM


Re: T o p i c !
The difficulty in moving from 2LOT to a lot of 1LOT seems to arrive from determing if "the creature" below(bold added) is a living thing, a no longer living thing, or just a sack of chemicals in:
The book presents the evidence for the author's concept that the origin and evolution of life is none other than the origin and evolution of thermodynamic self-organized (self-assembled) polyhierarchic systems. Neglecting the influence of the Almighty God, the author's approach is based only on Gibbs' thermodynamic principles.
By now it is well known that Darwin's theory cannot explain many observations and preserves its interest only for historians of science. Because of this circumstance, new approaches to biological evolution should find an attentive audience and without discussing the origins of the thermodynamic principles applied. (Is the originator the Almighty God or His creature Gibbs?) The book consists of two chapters. The first treats the conventional view of how life forms evolve, but introduces Gibbs' thermodynamics in the treatment of a few systems. However, the major interest is in system changes, not the thermodynamics of the processes. The author analyzes the main points which a physical theory of evolution should be able to explain and proceeds to propose a model which can do so. The author's thesis is that under the action of the sun's energy, substances which are thermodynamically stable in the early conditions of the earth are transformed into various products of photosynthesis, those transforms being regulated by thermodynamic principles. During this process, from the resulting products only those stable suprastructures are selected which correspond to minimum states of the free energy of a biosystem. These structures are formed into micro- and macrovolumes of the system.
http://www.endeav.org/evolut/age/review.html
I can not decide if the following
quote:
However, recently, the law of temporal hierarchies was formulated. This law substantiates the possibility of identifying (discerning) quasi-closed monohierarchical systems (subsystems) within open polyhierarchical biological systems. It was also established that, as a rule, the processes of evolution in living natural systems are quasi-equilibrium processes. It was shown that models of living systems are analogues of models of equilibrium (quasi-equilibrium) chromatographic columns.
These facts allowed creation of the quasi-equilibrium thermodynamics of near to equilibrium quasi-closed systems. This thermodynamics is based on the statement that the functions of state (with a good approximation) at any moment of time in quasi-closed monohierarchical systems have a real physical meaning (sense).
http://www.endeav.org/evolut/age/evol.htm
transparency remands Fisher's analogy of his fundamental genetic theorem to some LOT or not.
Western University | 404 Error - file not found
Professor Eddington has recently remarked that "The law that entropy always increases - the second law of thermodynamics - holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of nature". It is not a little instructive that so similar a law should hold the supreme position among the biological sciences. (Fisher 1930 The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection).
.
But as Dr. Gladyshev has recently remarked in Norway it all depends on *knowledge* of the thermal process(es) constiuitive, my intial reaction to his correspondence
EvC Forum: GP Gladyshev's paper (s)or mine?
was confused precisely because I failed to appreciate how important thermoSTATICS were for hierarchical thermodynamics of his wording(s) and I did not see that my notion at a use of Faraday's "thermal current" (temperature difference induced electricity)was in no way indicative of a different idea. If flesh in any way can be shown to adapt to changes in thermal currents it seems time to consider the differential equations
{relevant equations}
underlying macrothermodyanmics and attempt to derive evolutionary theory from a configuration of 1LOT which might find say molecular free path lengths, fitness, entropy increases to be aspects of the same statistical physics. That is my guess on how the lots park the vehicle but if it is a bike instead all bets are off.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 07-09-2005 09:54 AM

This message is a reply to:
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