Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,760 Year: 4,017/9,624 Month: 888/974 Week: 215/286 Day: 22/109 Hour: 3/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Importance of Potentially Disconfirming Evidence
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6501 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 119 of 182 (115696)
06-16-2004 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by John Paul
06-16-2004 9:31 AM


Re: I see JM
quote:
However biology and genetics don't support punk eek. Oh well...
Oh well, to bad they do...at its most basic level, every mutation is a punctuated event..in any case
Science. 1996 Jun 21;272(5269):1802-4. Related Articles, Links
Comment in:
Science. 1996 Dec 6;274(5293):1748-50.
Science. 1996 Jun 21;272(5269):1741.
Punctuated evolution caused by selection of rare beneficial mutations.
Elena SF, Cooper VS, Lenski RE.
Center for Microbial Ecology, Michigan State University, East Lansing, 48824, USA. selena@ant.css.msu.edu
For more than two decades there has been intense debate over the hypothesis that most morphological evolution occurs during relatively brief episodes of rapid change that punctuate much longer periods of stasis. A clear and unambiguous case of punctuated evolution is presented for cell size in a population of Escherichia coli evolving for 3000 generations in a constant environment. The punctuation is caused by natural selection as rare, beneficial mutations sweep successively through the population. This experiment shows that the most elementary processes in population genetics can give rise to punctuated evolution dynamics.
There are dozens of other references to exactly this topic...which..drum roll please, are actually supported by observation and experimental evidence...can't say that for the "I don't understand it so it must have been designed" crowd...oh well

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 9:31 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:04 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6501 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 123 of 182 (115707)
06-16-2004 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by John Paul
06-16-2004 10:04 AM


Re: I see JM
quote:
John Paul:
Every mutation is a punctuated event? Please spare me.
Spare you what? You have clearly spared an education in genetics. Do you think a genetic mutation is a punctuated or a gradual event? Is a retrotranposon insertion punctuated or gradual over generations...think about it.
quote:
In your refernece I would bet that E. coli remained E. coli, which really does not help the case for the ToE.
You claimed that punk eek is not observed genetically, the reference (which you did not read) shows you are wrong...at the end of this post are 7 additional references including one that shows a genetic barrier developing between bacteria i.e. new species via mutation and selection. So no, the new bacteria are not just E. coli anymore.
quote:
So please provide the other references and we will see what they contain
I have already seen what they contain...we will see if you will.
Note the first reference is a review in case the science in those "peer reviewed rags" I believe you call them, go over your head
1: Elena SF, Lenski RE. Related Articles, Links
Evolution experiments with microorganisms: the dynamics and genetic bases of adaptation.
Nat Rev Genet. 2003 Jun;4(6):457-69. Review.
PMID: 12776215 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
2: Lenski RE, Ofria C, Pennock RT, Adami C. Related Articles, Links
The evolutionary origin of complex features.
Nature. 2003 May 8;423(6936):139-44.
PMID: 12736677 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3: Lenski RE, Winkworth CL, Riley MA. Related Articles, Links
Rates of DNA sequence evolution in experimental populations of Escherichia coli during 20,000 generations.
J Mol Evol. 2003 Apr;56(4):498-508.
PMID: 12664169 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4: Cooper TF, Rozen DE, Lenski RE. Related Articles, Links
Parallel changes in gene expression after 20,000 generations of evolution in Escherichiacoli.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Feb 4;100(3):1072-7. Epub 2003 Jan 21.
PMID: 12538876 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5: Vulic M, Lenski RE, Radman M. Related Articles, Links
Mutation, recombination, and incipient speciation of bacteria in the laboratory.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1999 Jun 22;96(13):7348-51.
PMID: 10377417 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
6: Papadopoulos D, Schneider D, Meier-Eiss J, Arber W, Lenski RE, Blot M. Related Articles, Links
Genomic evolution during a 10,000-generation experiment with bacteria.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1999 Mar 30;96(7):3807-12.
PMID: 10097119 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7: Velicer GJ, Kroos L, Lenski RE. Related Articles, Links
Loss of social behaviors by myxococcus xanthus during evolution in an unstructured habitat
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 Oct 13;95(21):12376-80.
PMID: 9770494 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:04 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:29 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6501 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 127 of 182 (115714)
06-16-2004 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by John Paul
06-16-2004 10:04 AM


Re: I see JM
Oh yeah, and since I will assume you will just brush off all bacterial data as irrelevant, here are several other completely different organisms where studies of the genetics of speciation have been undertaken...but since you claimed that ID looks at all the "current knowledge" in deriving its conclusions..I guess you must have read all of these studies and the dozens of others that have also been undertaken?
Maybe you could point me to a genetic study that provides evidence for ID?
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2004 Jun 7 [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links
Early events in speciation: Polymorphism for hybrid male sterility in Drosophila.
Reed LK, Markow TA.
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology and Center for Insect Science, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ 85721.
Capturing the process of speciation early enough to determine the initial genetic causes of reproductive isolation remains a major challenge in evolutionary biology. We have found, to our knowledge, the first example of substantial intraspecific polymorphism for genetic factors contributing to hybrid male sterility. Specifically, we show that the occurrence of hybrid male sterility in crosses between Drosophila mojavensis and its sister species, Drosophila arizonae, is controlled by factors present at different frequencies in different populations of D. mojavensis. In addition, we show that hybrid male sterility is a complex phenotype; some hybrid males with motile sperm still cannot sire offspring. Because male sterility factors in hybrids between these species are not yet fixed within D. mojavensis, this system provides an invaluable opportunity to characterize the genetics of reproductive isolation at an early stage.
Mol Phylogenet Evol. 2003 Dec;29(3):507-18. Related Articles, Links
Genes that determine flower color: the role of regulatory changes in the evolution of phenotypic adaptations.
Durbin ML, Lundy KE, Morrell PL, Torres-Martinez CL, Clegg MT.
Department of Botany and Plant Sciences, University of California, 2213 Batchelor Hall, Riverside, CA 92521, USA. mary.durbin@ucr.edu
A central goal of evolutionary genetics is to trace the causal pathway between mutations at particular genes and adaptation at the phenotypic level. The proximate objective is to identify adaptations through the analysis of molecular sequence data from specific candidate genes or their regulatory elements. In this paper, we consider the molecular evolution of floral color in the morning glory genus (Ipomoea) as a model for relating molecular and phenotypic evolution. To begin, flower color variation usually conforms to simple Mendelian transmission, thus facilitating genetic and molecular analyses. Population genetic studies of flower color polymorphisms in the common morning glory (Ipomoea purpurea) have shown that some morphs are subject to complex patterns of selection. Striking differences in floral color and morphology are also associated with speciation in the genus Ipomoea. The molecular bases for these adaptive shifts can be dissected because the biosynthetic pathways that determine floral pigmentation are well understood and many of the genes of flavonoid biosynthesis have been isolated and extensively studied. We present a comparative analysis of the level of gene expression in Ipomoea for several key genes in flavonoid biosynthesis. Specifically we ask: how frequently are adaptive shifts in flower color phenotypes associated with changes in regulation of gene expression versus mutations in structural genes? The results of this study show that most species differences in this crucial phenotype are associated with changes in the regulation of gene expression.
Evolution Int J Org Evolution. 2003 May;57(5):1049-60. Related Articles, Links
Reproductive character displacement and the genetics of gamete recognition in tropical sea urchins.
Geyer LB, Palumbi SR.
Department of Organismic and Evolutionary Biology, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138, USA. lgeryer@oeb.harvard.edu
Reproductive character displacement occurs when sympatric and allopatric populations of a species differ in traits crucial to reproduction, and it is commonly thought of as a signal of selection acting to limit hybridization. Most documented cases of reproductive character displacement involve characters that are poorly understood at the genetic level, and rejecting alternative hypotheses for biogeographic shifts in reproductive traits is often very difficult. In sea urchins, the gamete recognition protein bindin evolves under positive selection when species are broadly sympatric, suggesting character displacement may be operating in this system. We sampled sympatric and allopatric populations of two species in the sea urchin genus Echinometra for variation in bindin and for the mitochondrial cytochrome oxidase I to examine patterns of population differentiation and molecular evolution at a reproductive gene. We found a major shift in bindin alleles between central Pacific (allopatric) and western Pacific (sympatric) populations of E. oblonga. Allopatric populations of E. oblonga are polyphyletic with E. sp. C at bindin, whereas sympatric populations of the two species are reciprocally monophyletic. There is a strong signal of positive selection (P(N)/P(S) = 4.5) in the variable region of the first exon of bindin, which is associated with alleles found in sympatric populations of E. oblonga. These results indicate that there is a strong pattern of reproductive character displacement between E. oblonga and E. sp. C and that the divergence is driven by selection. There is much higher population structure in sympatric populations at the bindin locus than at the neutral mitochondrial locus, but this difference is not seen in allopatric populations. These data suggest a pattern of speciation driven by selection for local gamete coevolution as a result of interactions between sympatric species. Although this pattern is highly suggestive of speciation by reinforcement, further research into hybrid fitness and egg-sperm interactions is required to address this potential mechanism for character displacement.
Evol Dev. 2003 May-Jun;5(3):269-80. Related Articles, Links
Mimicry: developmental genes that contribute to speciation.
Naisbit RE, Jiggins CD, Mallet J.
The Galton Laboratory, Department of Biology, University College London, London NW1 2HE, UK. russell.naisbit@unine.ch
Despite renewed interest in the role of natural selection as a catalyst for the origin of species, the developmental and genetic basis of speciation remains poorly understood. Here we describe the genetics of Mullerian mimicry in Heliconius cydno and H. melpomene (Lepidoptera: Nymphalidae), sister species that recently diverged to mimic other Heliconius. This mimetic shift was a key step in their speciation, leading to pre- and postmating isolation. We identify 10 autosomal loci, half of which have major effects. At least eight appear to be homologous with genes known to control pattern differences within each species. Dominance has evolved under the influence of identifiable "modifier" loci rather than being a fixed characteristic of each locus. Epistasis is found at many levels: phenotypic interaction between specific pairs of genes, developmental canalization due to polygenic modifiers so that patterns are less sharply defined in hybrids, and overall fitness through ecological selection against nonmimetic hybrid genotypes. Most of the loci are clustered into two genomic regions or "supergenes," suggesting color pattern evolution is constrained by preexisting linked elements that may have arisen via tandem duplication rather than having been assembled by natural selection. Linkage, modifiers, and epistasis affect the strength of mimicry as a barrier to gene flow between these naturally hybridizing species and may permit introgression in genomic regions unlinked to those under disruptive selection. Mullerian mimics in Heliconius use different genetic architectures to achieve the same mimetic patterns, implying few developmental constraints. Therefore, although developmental and genomic constraints undoubtedly influence the evolutionary process, their effects are probably not strong in comparison with natural selection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:04 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:42 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6501 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 131 of 182 (115722)
06-16-2004 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by John Paul
06-16-2004 10:29 AM


Re: I see JM
quote:
IOW bringing up bacteria evolving into bacteria does not help your case.
Sure it does. You creos argue that accumulated mutation events cannot lead to speciation gradually. The genetic evidence clearly shows that genetic barriers can arise even after a few thousand generations within a species i.e. speciation. This has been observed in multicellular organisms as well. Bacteria illustrate the genetics of this phenomenon over thousands of generations that cannot be observed in longer lived animals directly.
According to you,we are supposed to accept that over even more generations, no more diversity and distinction will occur among species and that somehow somewhere without any evidence there was just poof bang creation ex nihilo? That the mechanisms that operate in all living organisms (even those observed over thousands of generations)..or hundreds if you look at ancient DNA, at some point did not operate in the past and was just spontaneously designed? You cannot provide evidence or even a testable hypothesis of design in the present much less extrapolate to the past. If anyone needs evidence it is your camp.
But you know what? I am always up for a good hypothesis.
Can you provide
1. a testable hypothesis of design
2. that is falsifiable?
If you can you will be the first to do so

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:29 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 11:30 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6501 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 133 of 182 (115727)
06-16-2004 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by John Paul
06-16-2004 10:42 AM


Re: I see JM
quote:
Speciation? Creationists have known and understood speciation occurs for over 200 years- dating back to the Creationist Karl von Linne.
Creationists have been researching how genetic imprinting can cause mating incompatibility? They sure keep their "understanding" well guarded from the rest of the world then.
...and Linnaen classification system does not rely on any creationists beliefs as like any classification system, it can be used or modified irrespective of ones religious background or lack thereof..Newtonian mechanics were a product of methodological naturalism regardless of any supernatural beliefs Newton held...or do you think you have to be a jew for the theory of relativity to apply?
quote:
Do any of your references have to do with the punk eek Gould and Niles proposed?
Yes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 10:42 AM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 11:34 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6501 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 138 of 182 (115735)
06-16-2004 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by John Paul
06-16-2004 11:34 AM


Re: I see JM
quote:
Mendel was a Creationist and is the father of genetics. Speciation is ambiguous at best. Wolves and dogs can interbreed yet they are seperate species.
Show how anything about Mendelian genetics relies on creationionism or any other supernatural explanation....it is pure methodological naturalism regardless of Mendels religious beliefs. Hindu's, atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Wiccans, you name it have made novel discoveries in genetics, developmental biology, etc. all conected together by methodological naturalism.
quote:
The Linnean classification system was borne out of the search for the Created Kinds.
You are confusing motivation with actual practice. Again show how classification, taxonomy, cladistics or phylogenetics rely on anything but natural observation or explanation.
quote:
Newton understood this world and the universe to be the product of the Creator. He conducted his science under that framework.
Again, you confuse motivation with practice. There is nothing supernatural about Newtons theories. His science was plain old methodological naturalism. Methodological naturalism can be practiced by the religious or the non-religious to advance scientific knowledge. Proposing supernatural causes for natural events has never lead to a single scientific discovery or advancement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 11:34 AM John Paul has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6501 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 149 of 182 (115750)
06-16-2004 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by John Paul
06-16-2004 12:34 PM


Re: I see JM
quote:
Was Linnaeus an evolutionist? It is true that he abandoned his earlier belief in the fixity of species, and it is true that hybridization has produced new species of plants, and in some cases of animals. Yet to Linnaeus, the process of generating new species was not open-ended and unlimited. Whatever new species might have arisen from the primae speciei, the original species in the Garden of Eden, were still part of God's plan for creation, for they had always potentially been present.
And what does this have to do with the classification system? Kerry Mullis claims to have thought up PCR while completely stoned and driving along the freeway. Yet, PCR was realized by application of methodological naturalism...not by consumption of drugs. Lots of people go into medical research because a loved one had a disease. Are all medical discoveries caused by disease? By your logic yes.
You need to learn to separate motivation from practice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 12:34 PM John Paul has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6501 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 154 of 182 (115760)
06-16-2004 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by John Paul
06-16-2004 12:56 PM


Re: More on Linne
quote:
1. Carolus Linneaus and Taxonomy
a. Taxonomy is the science of classifying organisms; taxonomy had been a main concern of biology.
b. Carolus Linneaus (1707-1778) was a Swedish naturalist in the field of taxonomy:
1. Linneaus developed a binomial system of nomenclature (two-part names for each species [e.g., Homo sapiens]).
2. He developed a system of classification for all known plants.
And none of this relies on the supernatural in its conception or application
quote:
3. Like other taxonomists of his time, Linnaeus believed in the ideas of
a. special creation -- each species had an "ideal" structure and function; and
b. fixity of species -- each species had a place in the scala naturae, a sequential ladder of life.
And like other taxonomists of his time, he was wrong...still has no impact or influence on the classification system.
quote:
c. Linnaeus thought that classification should describe the fixed features of species and reveal God's divine plan.
He could have believed that a talking goat lived in his butt, it is irrelevant to the science of taxonomy.
quote:
d. His ideas reflected the ideas of Plato and Aristotle: the ideal form can be deduced, and organisms
can be arranged in order of increasing complexity.
Which is why modern taxonomy uses his nomenclature system and his observations of the biodiversity in nature but does not rely on mid 18th century superstition.
quote:
e. His later work with hybridization suggested species might change with time.
Kind of screws over his belief in special creation and the fixity of species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 12:56 PM John Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by John Paul, posted 06-16-2004 2:07 PM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024