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Author Topic:   Should students receive education on logical fallacies?
Creation Is Fallacious
Junior Member (Idle past 5434 days)
Posts: 7
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 02-09-2009


Message 1 of 24 (508258)
05-11-2009 10:02 PM


Should students be educated on logical fallacies and illogical statements etc BEFORE being exposed to the whole evolution/creation debate?
It seems like more and more people are buying into strawmen, argument from incredulity, argument of ignorance, probability, and flat out lies than ever before...
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fixed typo and added "?" in topic title. Changed "s" to "S" at sentence 1 beginning and fixed some typos/spelling errors. Added the "It" to the begining of the second sentence.

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Creation Is Fallacious
Junior Member (Idle past 5434 days)
Posts: 7
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 02-09-2009


Message 2 of 24 (508262)
05-11-2009 10:10 PM


sorry, please excuse my spelling errors.. it's kinda late here and i'm getting drowzy, lol
i'll be willing to re-write this if/before it's accepted

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 3 of 24 (508264)
05-11-2009 10:21 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
Message 1 is kind of bare bones, but I guess OK. I did fix a number of "glitches".
Creation Is Fallacious, please try a little harder on your writing style/formatting. Especially, CAPITAL letters at sentence beginnings.
Adminnemooseus
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added post promotion comments.

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4715 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 4 of 24 (508265)
05-11-2009 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Creation Is Fallacious
05-11-2009 10:02 PM


Catholic School
I attend a Catholic school where they don't waste our time with the imaginary evo/creo debate.
That would be a yes.
Edited by lyx2no, : Before someone asks if we're taught spelling.
Edited by lyx2no, : Or homonyms.

Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 5 of 24 (508267)
05-11-2009 10:32 PM


Should students be educated on logical fallacies and illogical statements...
Yes. That would help them recognize snake-oil salesmen of all stripes, including both clergy and politicians.
Of course, that's the last thing either group, or used car salesmen, would want to see.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

  
Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 4915 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 6 of 24 (508268)
05-11-2009 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Creation Is Fallacious
05-11-2009 10:02 PM


Should students be educated on logical fallacies and illogical statements etc BEFORE being exposed to the whole evolution/creation debate?
Very YES. I would also add that they should be taught basics in statistics and probability (beyond just coin tosses or dice) which would help with many other things beyond the EvC debate as well.

We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely

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Creation Is Fallacious
Junior Member (Idle past 5434 days)
Posts: 7
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 02-09-2009


Message 7 of 24 (508270)
05-11-2009 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stagamancer
05-11-2009 10:37 PM


the problem with advanced stats et al.. and i can attest to this.. it's that it's ****ing HARD! there are some complex concepts and algorithms involved.. i think if they note that REAL stats is much more than flipping a coin (and maybe scare students with an example from a proper stats class) they'd realize just how hard to truely understand statistics really are

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Stagamancer
Member (Idle past 4915 days)
Posts: 174
From: Oregon
Joined: 12-28-2008


Message 8 of 24 (508271)
05-11-2009 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Creation Is Fallacious
05-11-2009 10:44 PM


It doesn't need to be advanced stats, even just a hand-waiving explanation of standard deviation, standard error, and P-values would go a long way I think. They don't necessarily even need to learn how to calculate all that, just understand, for example, that a P-value of above 0.05 is generally considered not that great.

We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 24 (508272)
05-11-2009 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Creation Is Fallacious
05-11-2009 10:02 PM


Hi Creation Is Fallacious, and welcome to the fray.
Should students be educated on logical fallacies and illogical statements ...
Most definitely. Being able to identify false claims in advertising, politics, and punditry would be of immense benefit to society.
... BEFORE being exposed to the whole evolution/creation debate?
I think it is a much wider problem than just evo/creo debates, but a life skill.
It seems like more and more people are buying into strawmen, argument from incredulity, argument of ignorance, probability, and flat out lies than ever before...
When shrubbia was re-elected I had to re-evaluate my assessment of the intelligence of the average american, and it was then that I gave up the "conspiracy theory" explanation for the first election: HL Mencken was right, nobody ever went broke underestimating the gullibility of people.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Creation Is Fallacious
Junior Member (Idle past 5434 days)
Posts: 7
From: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 02-09-2009


Message 10 of 24 (508274)
05-11-2009 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
05-11-2009 10:55 PM


i realize it's value as a life skill i was merely trying to limit discussion to the parameters of what i thought the forum was about
sadly the election didn't bring doubt about the AVERAGE american voter... but the MAJORITY of american voters

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BMG
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 11 of 24 (508277)
05-11-2009 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Creation Is Fallacious
05-11-2009 10:02 PM


Of course
Hi C is F: welcome.
Should students be educated on logical fallacies and illogical statements etc BEFORE being exposed to the whole evolution/creation debate?
Definately. To add to your proposal, identifying value judgments and assumptions, descriptive assumptions, the strength of the reasons, significant omitted information, rival causes, rival conclusions, and so on would be of great benefit to many.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 12 of 24 (508278)
05-11-2009 11:49 PM


The perpetuation of the Golden Mean fallacy in the American consciousness has probably been one of the greatest disservices in the nation's history.
The Golden Mean fallacy, of course, is the suggestion that the truth always lies "in the middle" of any two views.
The average American thinks that the solution to any ideological question is halfway between the two positions proposed.
They of course completely ignore the relative accuracy of the arguments, or the fact that sometimes an argument can simply be wrong.
It unfortunately appeals to the basic human desire for "fairness," and has resulted in such nonsense as "equal time" supporters who support teaching Creationism alongside Evolution in science classrooms.
Instruction not only in logical fallacies but in basic logic should be mandatory at the High School level at a minimum. Critical thinking in the American educational system currently is an afterthought, and that's simply shameful.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 13 of 24 (508279)
05-12-2009 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Rahvin
05-11-2009 11:49 PM


This reminds me of philosohpy debates back during college days. There were always smart-asses who thought saying both sides were right or both sides were wrong somehow made them look smart.
I have been supporting for many years now that a philosophical introductory course to logical fallacies in high school. And instead of spending an hour every sunday talking to themselves and their imaginary friend in the sky, people ought to hold philosophical debates in their communities.

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 14 of 24 (508281)
05-12-2009 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Rahvin
05-11-2009 11:49 PM


Hegel Was an American?
Rahvin writes:
The perpetuation of the Golden Mean fallacy in the American consciousness has probably been one of the greatest disservices in the nation's history.
The Golden Mean fallacy, of course, is the suggestion that the truth always lies "in the middle" of any two views.
The average American thinks that the solution to any ideological question is halfway between the two positions proposed.
This Golden Mean fallacy appears to me more related to Hegel's Dialectic, where the contradiction of opposing viewpoints is debated and resolved to a 'higher understanding' through compromise, than any uniquely American philosophy.
As if one could resolve a flat earth with the observed oblate spheroid. Resolve it to what? a fat pancake earth?
No wonder Schopenhauer was pissed off, and he was just the first of many to hold this BS in contempt. Some things are simply true despite that easily manipulated public opinion.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 15 of 24 (508283)
05-12-2009 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by anglagard
05-12-2009 12:25 AM


Re: Hegel Was an American?
This Golden Mean fallacy appears to me more related to Hegel's Dialectic, where the contradiction of opposing viewpoints is debated and resolved to a 'higher understanding' through compromise, than any uniquely American philosophy.
I didn't mean to imply that the Golden Mean was unique to America; rather, it's simply pervasive here to the point where this extension of "everything in moderation" is taken to irrational extremes by the vast majority, and this is regarded as somehow wise.

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