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Author Topic:   Safety and Effectiveness of Herbs and Pharmaceuticals
rockondon
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 40
Joined: 03-29-2010


Message 74 of 209 (554209)
04-06-2010 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
01-02-2008 3:45 PM


After reading the OP a few times, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't know what this thread is about.
Even so, I thought I'd throw out a few comments to try and stir debate.
When I see someone promoting "natural" products, it is usually a substance that has not been shown to work effectively and instead of admitting to a lack of research to support its effectiveness they often move the goalposts and whine about things like big pharmaceutical companies.
Lets talk about depression medications.
The mainstay treatment for most types of depression usually begins with SSRI's (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors). But check this out...
Of 74 studies registered with the United States FDA, 37 with positive results were published in academic journals, while 22 studies with negative results were not published and 11 with negative results were published in a way that conveyed a positive outcome (one positive study was not published and three negative studies were published with results that were portrayed as negative). Overall, 94% of studies actually published were positive outcomes; when published and unpublished studies were included for analysis, the percentage of positive outcomes was 51%
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor - Wikipedia
However, one herb that has shown to be effective is St. John's Wort. It has a side effect profile similar to placebo. To put it another way, its about as harmful to you as drinking water. Now check this out...
St. John's wort had similar efficacy to standard antidepressants. The rate of side effects was twice lower than for newer SSRI antidepressants and five times lower than for older tricyclic antidepressants.
Hypericum perforatum - Wikipedia
I've spent a lot of time in Detox and on the Psych ward lately (working, not as a patient - I know what you guys were thinkin ) and I've never seen anyone taking St John's Wort, but dozens of my patients were on SSRI's. Why are people taking these drugs and suffering all these side effects when St John's Wort seems just as good and with virtually no side effects?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 01-02-2008 3:45 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Coyote, posted 04-06-2010 10:32 PM rockondon has not replied
 Message 76 by Apothecus, posted 04-07-2010 7:00 PM rockondon has replied
 Message 77 by Granny Magda, posted 04-07-2010 10:15 PM rockondon has not replied

  
rockondon
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 40
Joined: 03-29-2010


Message 81 of 209 (554488)
04-08-2010 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Apothecus
04-07-2010 7:00 PM


Hi Apothecus,
Indeed, but I think you're representing a rosier picture of SJW than is supported by credible sources. Ignoring Wiki for the moment, according to NIH's NCCAM Study...
I'm aware that there is at least one study that shows that SJW isn't effective for MAJOR depression and that study avoided testing patients with mild and moderate depression which is where the positive effects of SJW would likely have been more clinically significant. I never said SJW works for all types of depression in all circumstances. No antidepressants do. What I do contend is that it is effective for some types of depression in some circumstances. If you disagree with that, I'd love to hear it.
a pharmacist will steer a patient toward a product which has the weight of years and years of clinical trials vs. a product which "has not been evaluated."
I suspect you don't like wiki so I dug up one of the journal articles that tested the effectiveness of SJW.
The available evidence suggests that the hypericum extracts (St John's Wort) tested in the included trials a) are superior to placebo in patients with major depression; b) are similarly effective as standard antidepressants; c) and have fewer side effects than standard antidepressants.
Linde K, Berner MM, Kriston L. (2009) St John's wort for major depression. Evidence based mental health. 12(3):78.
I even did an APA style reference and everything. Hope you enjoyed it
Lets go back to this point for a moment...
a pharmacist will steer a patient toward a product which has the weight of years and years of clinical trials vs. a product which "has not been evaluated."
...and the previous study you mentioned which I found here. I presume you will agree that SSRI's are effective based on the "years of clinical trials," if you don't then please correct me.
In that study you brought up, they compared SJW, a placebo, and an SSRI (sertraline). Their findings were...
They also found that approximately 24 percent of patients taking St. John's wort had full responses to treatment versus about 32 percent for placebo and 25 percent for sertraline.
It seems that placebos are superior to SJW AND the SSRI for treating major depression!!!
(according to the study you provided. Thanks for that)
Incidentally, the other point I'm making is that the side-effect profile of SJW is lower than other antidepressants. If you disagree with that, I'd love to hear more about that too.
Hi Granny magda!
I don't know what they're putting in the water round your way, but...
I'm not saying that SJW is harmless, all I'm saying is that the side-effects of SJW is markedly less than more conventional antidepressants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Apothecus, posted 04-07-2010 7:00 PM Apothecus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Apothecus, posted 04-08-2010 10:52 PM rockondon has not replied
 Message 84 by Granny Magda, posted 04-09-2010 9:12 AM rockondon has not replied

  
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