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Author Topic:   Safety and Effectiveness of Herbs and Pharmaceuticals
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 209 (554927)
04-10-2010 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Granny Magda
02-18-2010 10:58 PM


Re: Chinese Medicine Cancer Scandal
LoL, Granny, Dr Wu sold a banned chemical. She broke the law! This one isolated incident is all over the internet, whereas lawful doc administered harmful pharms are maiming and killing people by the thousands each and every year.

This isolated example, in fact, involves no herbal product. Had Dr Wu stuck to the naturals as nearly all wholistic docs do, there would've been no problem.

Btw, your link does not work. I found the site source by search.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Granny Magda, posted 02-18-2010 10:58 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 209 (554928)
04-10-2010 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Granny Magda
04-10-2010 10:07 PM


Re: Mercola's Wonderful Body Butter
Granny Magda writes:

All drugs should be treated the same; trialled as thoroughly as possible for safety and efficacy, whether herbal or otherwise. I don't think that most herbal medics have risen to this challenge.

Did you read my response to Percy's OP on the last page relative to the fact that herbs are not one and the same as pharma drugs by definition and should not be lumped with parma drugs

The natural food suppliment industry will, for the most part, go belly up if regulated, due to the fact that the powerful pharms, in bed with the government and loaded with dough will obliviate them. Government mandated regulations will bankrupt them and make their products too costly to produce. Are you sure that's what you want, Granny?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 10:07 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 11:45 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 138 of 209 (554949)
04-10-2010 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Buzsaw
04-10-2010 10:27 PM


Re: Mercola's Wonderful Body Butter
Two replies in one here,

LoL, Granny, Dr Wu sold a banned chemical.

This is the point that Coragyps and I have been trying to get across to you Buz; herbs contain chemicals! Chemicals are a constituent of herbs, of all plants, of you and me. The pills contained a banned substance; aristolochic acid. Where did the chemical come from? From the herbs that made up the pills! The pills were made from herbs. Here is a list of the ingredients in "Xie Gan Wan";

quote:
What is the formula composition?
A proprietary blend* of
Radix Gentianae Scabrae
Radix Bupleuri Chinensis
Rhizoma Alismatis Orientalis
Radix Rehmanniae Glutinosae
Radix Scutellariae Baicalensis
Fructus Gardeniae Jasminoidis
Medulla Tetrapanacis Papyriferi
Semen Plantaginis (Plantago asiatica)
Radix Angelicae Sinensis
Radix Glycyrrhizae Uralensis

From http://www.activeherb.com/longdan/ with Chinese names omitted.

Those are all herbs, just mixed and made into pills. They are herbs that contain chemicals. They are a herbal drug. Do you imagine that had they been used in their unmixed natural forms, the aristolochic acid would not have been present? Do you think that it is somehow inconceivable that herbs contain harmful chemicals?

She broke the law!

She walked out of court a free woman. She got away with it. the law is, in this case, an ass and it needs tightening. Besides, the legality of a substance has no bearing on whether or not it is a drug, a herb or both.

This isolated example, in fact, involves no herbal product. Had Dr Wu stuck to the naturals as nearly all wholistic docs do, there would've been no problem.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. The product was indeed herbal and as natural as any mixture of herbs could be. It is going to kill that poor woman, regardless of how natural it is. Natural poison is still poison. Nor is this an isolated example.

quote:
Two instances of Chinese herbal medicine poisoning in Singapore.

Datura metel L. (Yangjinghua) is a toxic herb that contains anticholinergic compounds. Inappropriate consumption of this herb could result in anticholinergic poisoning. Clinical features of such poisoning have not been previously described. We report two such cases. Both patients had taken brews of Datura metel L., and developed poisoning soon afterwards. Prominent clinical features included confusion, dilated pupils, absence of sweating, and the absence of sluggish bowel sounds. No flushing of the face or skin was detected in either case. Both patients recovered fully within 12 hours with supportive measures, and no gastric elimination or antidote was used. The different names ascribed to Datura metel L. in chinese medicine can be confusing; this confusion resulted in the poisoning of one of our patients. The clinical features of Datura metel L. poisoning and concerns over inappropriate uses of herbal medicine are discussed.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18465037

quote:
Lead poisoning caused by contaminated Cordyceps, a Chinese herbal medicine: two case reports

Two cases of lead poisoning, caused by the Chinese herbal medicine Cordyceps, were reported to the Department of Health in a laboratory-based blood lead surveillance program. Such unusual cases of lead poisoning have not been previously reported. These two patients took Cordyceps herbal medicine for treatment of underlying diseases. Loss of appetite and anemic signs of lead poisoning were manifested in one patient with a blood lead level of 130 μg/dl, while the other patient was asymptomatic with a blood lead level of 46 μg/dl. The lead content in the Cordyceps powder was found to be as high as 20 000 ppm. After cessation of intake in the asymptomatic patient, and cessation of intake and treatment with chelating agents in the symptomatic patient, the blood lead levels returned to normal range. This report raises concerns about lead poisoning from unusual herbal medicine worldwide.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=...

Did you read my response to Percy's OP on the last page relative to the fact that herbs are not one and the same as pharma drugs by definition and should not be lumped with parma drugs

Uh, yah. I responded to it, remember? I asked how opium was not a drug. You responded back, I replied with this masterpiece of rhetoric here; Message 130.

The natural food suppliment industry will, for the most part, go belly up if regulated, due to the fact that the powerful pharms, in bed with the government and loaded with dough will obliviate them. Government mandated regulations will bankrupt them and make their products too costly to produce. Are you sure that's what you want, Granny?

Not especially, although I would be happy to see dangerous quacks like Mercola go under. What I would rather see is an effective medical system where the best possible treatments, whether herbal or otherwise are available to all. I have a good deal more faith than you in the ability of herbalists to continue making a buck. If their products works, they'll stay afloat. If not, they never deserved to be in business in the first place.

Mutate and Survive

Edited by Granny Magda, : Fix link, add citations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Buzsaw, posted 04-10-2010 10:27 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Buzsaw, posted 04-11-2010 8:47 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 209 (554979)
04-11-2010 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Granny Magda
04-10-2010 11:45 PM


Re: Mercola's Wonderful Body Butter
Contents deleted for additional study.

Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted in context

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 11:45 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 140 of 209 (554985)
04-11-2010 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Buzsaw
04-10-2010 9:32 PM


Re: FDA - Labeling
When you begin reading about the maimed and dead due to the naturals....

I have anecdotes, too, Buz. Lidia was a good friend of my wife's who was an Herbalife saleswoman. She treated the lump in her breast with the stuff that Herbalife sells, and with prayer, until it was Stage 4. She died last year at 45 years of age.

If people don't mention that they take "naturals," it's a little harder to write about the ones that die from them, particularly when they die from the baseless hope that they can fix a serious ailment like cancer with some flower buds that haven't had even rudimentary quality control run on their potency. Dead from false hope is just as dead as dead from some rare side effect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Buzsaw, posted 04-10-2010 9:32 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Buzsaw, posted 04-12-2010 8:27 AM Coragyps has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 141 of 209 (555004)
04-11-2010 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Buzsaw
04-10-2010 9:32 PM


Re: FDA - Labeling
When you begin reading about the maimed and dead due to the naturals as is the case with the pharms, then you have reason for government oversight and regulation.

Are we forgetting about all of the living and cured due to pharms? Antibiotics alone have save billions over the last 100 years.

Also, you did not address the strong possibility of fraud. That is, the stuff doesn't do what the manufacturers claims it does. Without a clinical trial you can't claim any effect.

Otherwise you're advocating even more big expensive government bureaucratic costly harassment on the naturals than they are already encountering to the detriment of us, their satisfied and benefited customers.

I am suggesting the same independent verification of efficacy that all medicines go through. Why is this a problem? If these natural remedies do what you claim then it shouldn't be a problem.

We who apply the naturals significantly reduce the need to apply the overloaded healthcare system's public funded services. At age 74, thanks to the naturals, neither my wife or I have once used any form of medicare or medicaid.

What evidence do you have that it is due to the naturals?

We are loosing our freedoms and tax depleted earnings, one law at a time.

So we should have the freedom to sell snake oil as a cure all? Really? I don't remember seeing that in the constitution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Buzsaw, posted 04-10-2010 9:32 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 142 of 209 (555005)
04-11-2010 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Buzsaw
04-10-2010 9:50 PM


Re: Mercola's Wonderful Body Butter
My wife loves Dr Mercola's wonderful body butter. It's ingredients are so safe that it is great for baby's skin and if it were accidently ingested, would pose no health risk. Not so with most body creams.

What I am more interested in is what it does, not in what it doesn't do.

You might as well market purified air as a cure for cancer with the argument that it doesn't have any side effects. Does that make sense?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 04-10-2010 9:50 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 143 of 209 (555030)
04-11-2010 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Kitsune
04-10-2010 10:39 AM


Re: Vaccine-Denialism Not the Issue
Stephen Barrett is as biased as they come. He knows how to cherry-pick his data so that it reflects whatever he wants it to reflect, and he's lumped legitimate people in with frauds and shysters in order to tar everybody on his hit-list with the same brush.

Unsubstantiated assertion maybe?
Show where he is biased. Show that anything on the site is not sourced or based on science or law.

Barrett would have us all steer clear of healthy nutritional supplements and buy into the sickness industry that is allopathic medicine. IMO that would be endangering children's lives. You are a great mouthpiece for him.

If the claims the purveyors make had scientific support he isn't even going to mention them. It is when claims are made without scientific support he adds them to his site.
I have much more faith in allopathic medicine then the voodoo of alt and comp medicine. Why would you trust your health to someones say so. If their supplements are so wonderful where are the trials?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 209 (555104)
04-12-2010 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Coragyps
04-11-2010 11:28 AM


Re: FDA - Labeling
Coragyps writes:

I have anecdotes, too, Buz. Lidia was a good friend of my wife's who was an Herbalife saleswoman. She treated the lump in her breast with the stuff that Herbalife sells, and with prayer, until it was Stage 4. She died last year at 45 years of age.

If people don't mention that they take "naturals," it's a little harder to write about the ones that die from them, particularly when they die from the baseless hope that they can fix a serious ailment like cancer with some flower buds that haven't had even rudimentary quality control run on their potency. Dead from false hope is just as dead as dead from some rare side effect.

Lol, Coragyps. Treating breast cancer with herbalife and prayer is nowhere advocated by any sensible wholistic health regime. That would be like elephant hunting with a bebe gun. A far more aggressive program, including a stringent diet, and MD wholistic health practitioner guided protocol would be the way to go.

The reason, imo, that God does not, more often, heal cancer is that he knows that unless one changes one's diet and lifestyle which causes cancer, if healed one will just keep doing what caused the cancer in the first place.

There are holistic alternative cancer clenics, both in and out of the US which apply alternative methodology for cancer treatment.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Coragyps, posted 04-11-2010 11:28 AM Coragyps has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by onifre, posted 04-12-2010 6:11 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 146 by Coragyps, posted 04-12-2010 6:31 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 147 by Coragyps, posted 04-12-2010 6:32 PM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 04-12-2010 7:27 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1031 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 145 of 209 (555225)
04-12-2010 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Buzsaw
04-12-2010 8:27 AM


Re: FDA - Labeling
The reason, imo, that God does not, more often, heal cancer is that he knows that unless one changes one's diet and lifestyle which causes cancer, if healed one will just keep doing what caused the cancer in the first place.

So then we should see an insane amount of miraculous cancer healing in children who never had a chance, right? It's not like they chose their own diet. So every single child with cancer should be expecting a miracle by your standard. Or has god turned his back on them too, as you claim he does for people who don't follow a strict diet and healthy lifestyle?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Buzsaw, posted 04-12-2010 8:27 AM Buzsaw has acknowledged this reply

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 146 of 209 (555230)
04-12-2010 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Buzsaw
04-12-2010 8:27 AM


Re: FDA - Labeling
Treating breast cancer with herbalife and prayer is nowhere advocated by any sensible wholistic health regime.

I'm sure it isn't. But the herbal woo goddam sure sucked Lidia in and killed her.

And it's "holistic." Or, most of the time, "quackery."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Buzsaw, posted 04-12-2010 8:27 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 147 of 209 (555232)
04-12-2010 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Buzsaw
04-12-2010 8:27 AM


Re: FDA - Labeling
The reason, imo, that God does not, more often, heal cancer...

He heals amputees even less often. Is that diet and lifestyle, too?


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 148 of 209 (555244)
04-12-2010 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Buzsaw
04-12-2010 8:27 AM


Re: FDA - Labeling
A far more aggressive program, including a stringent diet, and MD wholistic health practitioner guided protocol would be the way to go.

Can you please cite the clinical trials of wholistic vs. std. medical treatments?

The reason, imo, that God does not, more often, heal cancer is that he knows that unless one changes one's diet and lifestyle which causes cancer, if healed one will just keep doing what caused the cancer in the first place.

Cancer is unavoidable. You will get cancer if something else doesn't kill you first. Unless you can magically stop DNA polymerases from making mistakes, stop retroviruses from inserting into oncogenes, and make a shield around the earth that stops high energy particles you will get cancer. If you are in touch with God perhaps you should ask him why he made our Sun such a powerful emitter of cancer causing radiation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Buzsaw, posted 04-12-2010 8:27 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Buzsaw, posted 04-12-2010 11:57 PM Taq has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 209 (555283)
04-12-2010 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Taq
04-12-2010 7:27 PM


Re: FDA - Labeling
Taq writes:

Cancer is unavoidable.

All I can say to you is read up on the websites on causes of cancer and avoiding cancer. Some remote cultures like Eskimoes or cultures remote in the Himalayas, etc who eat no processed foods have in the past, been pretty much cancer free.

Edited by Buzsaw, : spelling error


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Taq, posted 04-12-2010 7:27 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 2380 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


(1)
Message 150 of 209 (555340)
04-13-2010 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Granny Magda
04-10-2010 7:21 PM


Alt med and vaccines
Time pressures are growing on me again after the Easter holidays but I will stick with this as long as I can.

The jury is not out. In the case of medical doctors the jury is the General Medical Council. The GMC finds those charges to be very much substantiated.

The GMC also readily ousts people who do not strictly play by their rules. I have been ill for 5 1/2 years and mainstream doctors have failed me utterly. Before this I was like you and many others here, I knew little to nothing about alternative medicine and was happy to take whatever my doctor felt necessary to prescribe for me. Now is not the place to go into this but maybe it will help you see where I am coming from. I have experienced various kinds of alt med firsthand and educating myself has helped me more than my doctors did. Though I have also had the valued help of a naturopathic physician in his 70s who was struck off by the GMC about 8 years ago for reasons that many people, including me, feel outraged about. I cannot simply sit back and blindly trust every decision they make. Agreed that Melanie Phillips, now that I have found out who she is, is the last person I'd actually want to be listening to; but the jury is still out with me about Dr. Wakefield. You can guffaw all you want about that, doesn't matter to me. I prefer not to close my mind one way or the other for now.

I certainly feel that it tarnishes his reputation and effectively discredits him as a source.

That's certainly your prerogative. I have been reading Dr. Mercola's website and books for some years now and while I like to think I am critical about anything I read, my own research has chimed with much of what he says time and time again. He advocates the way I eat, though I chose my diet before I knew about that. I approve of the supplements I've seen him selling. I'm glad he has the popularity and power that he does because he is a good advocate for alt med, though that is enough for people in some circles to go after him from any angle they can. I daresay you're reading websites affiliated with them.

Also, how much are you paying for that coconut oil? $17.45 a pint it says on Mercola's site. Jebus! You know that you can get it from local Indian and Pakistani grocers for about a couple of quid, right?

I don't know what kind of product you'd be buying from those shops. There are big differences in sourcing and processing. Virgin coconut oils I've looked at buying in this country are of comparable prices, which is unfortunate because it means I have to use it sparingly. At the moment I buy cold-pressed chemical-free virgin coconut oil from a country that sources from independent growers in the Philippines, and they charge £13.99 for 500ml. I do wish the overall prices would come down.

Cheap trick that. Mercola's page is full of references to the supposed curative powers of baking soda. He specifically mentions flu, again and again. He goes on to eulogise the use of baking soda as a treatment against cancer of all things! Ask yourself what Mercola is trying to tell us with this "historical" analysis. The page ends with a link to his "Top 12 all-natural cancer prevention strategies", which include an awful lot of the things that he sells... It's all just advertising, mixed in with grotesque pseudo-science.

You can make of that what you want. I've seen him mention all sorts of natural things that one can try using. Notice that he never says "use this certified cure" about anything (nor does he say, for that matter, "do not vaccinate your children"); he's offering possibilities for people like me who have found out the hard way that conventional "cures" aren't always all they are cracked up to be either. I haven't tried baking soda for any of the things he recommends but I'm not beyond doing so. Why are you so certain that it's useless for anything other than raising cakes or scrubbing the kitchen counter -- is it just because your "common sense" tells you it's nonsense? How do you know?

By the way, what Dr. Mercola does advocate time and time again, which you will see listed at the bottom of many of his web pages, is a healthy lifestyle that includes diet, exercise, proper sleep, relaxation, and so forth. Are you going to argue about that too?

About "cancer is a fungus" . . . again, I've studied candida overgrowth and its alleged effects. I've looked into ways of clearing it. I've even gone on a regimen for myself in case that was part of my health problem. I didn't watch the video but I read the article, which says that cancer may be the body's response to candida. Could that be the case at least some of the time? IMO very possibly so. Note that the article also lists the abysmal failure rates of mainstream cancer treatments. Chemotherapy is often the cure that kills the patient. I am very much in favour of finding alternative treatments that work with the body and boost the immune system, and there are very many of these to choose from.

Be serious. If you are overweight, eating fat is far less healthy than reducing fat intake. this is not complicated. Coconut fat may be a very in healthy fat in comparison to other fats but if you are seriously obese, no fat can truly be considered healthy, certainly not in the naive sense that you suggested.

I see, this is now a semantic argument. Would it help if I simply said, "Overweight people should eat less food generally"? Though there are some foods they should eat less of than others. High fructose corn syrup should be eliminated as completely as possible, for example, because it is readily metabolised into fat.

Parents are urged to ensure their children get the MMR jab. Measles cases in England and Wales rose by 36% in 2008, figures show. Confirmed cases increased from 990 in 2007 to 1,348 last year - the highest figure since the monitoring scheme was introduced in 1995.

Vaccination could have prevented those cases.

This is still a miniscule portion of the population. And how many of these cases resulted in complications -- do you have statistics for that? Vaccination has become such an ingrained part of our culture, it is now considered horrific if someone catches one of these diseases, even though a generation ago they were seen as a normal part of childhood. Why do we now need a chicken pox vaccine? It is harmless in almost all cases, unless the person's immune system is already compromised. I do not believe that vaccines are purely harmless and I am concerned about the growing numbers of them that are given to young children nowadays, especially in the US.

It's odd how people rail on against "dangerous" supplements sold by health food stores, and people dying from diseases for which there are vaccines. Strangely, the rates of iatrogenic illnesses and the death toll from FDA-approved prescription drugs never make the headlines. Why is that?

Because the media is made up of shallow, scientifically illiterate fuckwits? Or perhaps it's not actually true, given the number of stories about hospital-acquired infections such as MRSA.

You're dodging the question. I want to know why you think people like Steven Barrett are so hell-bent on discrediting people who sell nutritional supplements when prescription medications given and taken correctly are killing thousands of people every year and leaving others with horrific side effects. I mentioned Zyprexa; do you know what akathisia is? If it were herbs causing these effects you'd be up in arms. But it's different with prescription meds somehow. And yet, strangely, there were no deaths caused by nutritional supplements in 2008. None. How does that fit in with your arguments here about these dangerous unregulated substances?

Are you ever going to provide evidence that MMR is linked to autism?

I don't know for sure that it is. I never said I was sure that it was. I believe it may be a possibility.

Or cite those monkey studies?

If that's what you want. It's another mystery that I think you will love; the study was withdrawn from the Journal of Neurotoxicology but no one seems to know the reason. Here is what Wakefield said in the transcript of the video on Mercola's site (apologies for the length but it explains the background well):

it's a study that should have been done years ago. When you do vaccine safety studies, they are very often done in primates, non-human primates before they go into children. The rhesus macaque, an old world monkey is one of those primates and so we decided some years ago, eight or so years ago, to do the study that had never been done.
To take the vaccine schedule, what happens in the real world if we expose these infant primates to what kids get between the age of day one and preschool boosters, the vaccine schedule in the 1990s with thimerosal in it. What's the outcome? What's the outcome in terms of their development, in terms of their cognition, in terms of their intestinal function, in terms of their immune function, brain imaging, all those kinds of things a very, very detailed study.

It should have been done. It was never done. It had never been done, extraordinary.
Parents might expect that the total vaccine schedule that their children are going to get has been looked at for safety in total, it has not. The individual vaccines are looked at but the schedule is not.

So we decided we do the study.

I would wholeheartedly support such a study. I would expect such studies to be done before I subjected my child to a US-style vaccination schedule. Why is this not happening?

The first paper just looked at the effect of the thimerosal, the mercury containing hepatitis B vaccine on day one and looking at the acquisition of essential reflexes like feeding reflexes. And we compared with unvaccinated animals; animals that have been given saline as a control.

And what we found is there was a significant delay in the acquisition of these basic life saving reflexes in the recipients of the vaccine. As early as the first few days of life, very, very worrying.

We published that paper, it went through rigorous peer review. It was published online in Neurotoxicolgy and then lo and behold, after the GMC decision, they decided not to proceed to publication in the paper itself.

The paper was withdrawn. Not based upon its clinical and scientific merits, they have been through the process of peer review that you and I talked about, a process that we recognize as absolutely essential to the conduct of science. It had been through that. It had been published and then it was withdrawn.

We all have our own opinions but the fact is that when a colleague of mine contacted the journal's editor to say “why has this happened?” the journal editor directed that person to Elsevier.

This is extraordinary.

Had it been withdrawn for a scientific reason, the editor would have been able to deal with it but it was not withdrawn for a scientific reason. The contact was directed by the editor to Elsevier itself; the publishing house. Well, the publishing house shouldn't be telling the journal what they should and shouldn't publish.

DM: The owner of the journal.

DW: That's right. It's absolutely an extraordinary situation. So this was a decision that had come from the top, from the publishers.

And as I've said before, we not know that Elsevier and Glaxo SmithKline have this common denominator this link and the chairman of Elsevier. So one can speculate about whether that is involved or not, I don't know.

Huge potential for conflict of interest. It should be disclosed and something which shouldn't and one hopes it didn't influence the decision to withdraw that paper. But the important factor is that it was a decision taken by the publishing company and not by the editor, the scientific editor of the journal itself.

DM: And this is the drug company that actually manufactured the vaccine that was removed from the UK after four years of causing these increased incidences of meningitis as a result of the contamination.

DW: That's correct.

Was the paper withdrawn due to the influence of a drug company that manufactures vaccines? Who knows. (Elsevier also owns The Lancet, which withdrew the original paper on MMR and autism. The chairman of Elsevier has a board position at Glaxo SmithKline.) I would like to see more studies of this nature conducted and published. That is the crux of Wakefield's claims about the MMR: studies will claim that each vaccine is OK individually, but the effects when all 3 are given together are not known. This is also the case in polypharmacy, where doctors will prescribe "safe" drugs even though their effects when taken together are not known. How many people are really aware that they have turned into walking lab experiments?

Or show that coconut oil fights cancer?

As part of a healthy diet, you bet it does.

you're not actually debating...

We seem to be actively disagreeing with each other. It might just be nice to keep the topic from continually expanding because having to write very lengthy posts puts me off posting anything at all.

Edited by Kitsune, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Granny Magda, posted 04-10-2010 7:21 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Granny Magda, posted 04-14-2010 9:31 AM Kitsune has responded

    
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