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Author Topic:   Perceptions of Reality
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 171 of 305 (394768)
04-13-2007 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Rob
04-13-2007 12:46 AM


Re: physical reality and morality?
Rob writes:
What am I missing?
Who is claiming that "all truth is relative"?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Rob, posted 04-13-2007 12:46 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Rob, posted 04-13-2007 9:08 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 173 of 305 (394841)
04-13-2007 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Rob
04-13-2007 9:08 AM


Re: physical reality and morality?
Rob writes:
Who is claiming that "all truth is relative"?
Can you think of a truth that is absolute?
That's not what I asked.
Your reasoning claimed that "all truth is relative" is invalid because "all" contradicts "relative". I'm asking: Who is using the word "all" besides you?
Doesn't your logic fall apart if the statement is "truth is relative"?
Edited by Ringo, : Spellink.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Rob, posted 04-13-2007 9:08 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Rob, posted 04-13-2007 10:41 PM ringo has replied
 Message 176 by Rob, posted 04-13-2007 10:47 PM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 184 of 305 (394922)
04-14-2007 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Rob
04-13-2007 10:41 PM


Re: physical reality and morality?
Rob writes:
I'm asking: Who is using the word "all" besides you?
And I want to make sure that you are not saying 'all truth is relative' implicitly. I contend that you and others are saying it in your assumptions.
Contend all you like. If you can't demonstrate that somebody's assumptions are wrong, you won't get anywhere.
If you do not believe (consciously or subconsiously) that all truth is relative, then it should not be difficult for you to think of one. But I believe you do. And I see it implied again and again in so many comments here at EVC.
Then it shouldn't be hard for you to demonstrate what you "see".

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Rob, posted 04-13-2007 10:41 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 12:22 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 186 of 305 (394925)
04-14-2007 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Rob
04-14-2007 12:22 AM


Re: physical reality and morality?
Rob writes:
How would you describe the color yellow to a blind man?
How does that demonstrate that I'm assuming all truth is relative?
(Lay out your whole demonstration at once. I'm not going to waste time answering a series of inane questions.)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 12:22 AM Rob has replied

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 Message 187 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 12:27 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 188 of 305 (394928)
04-14-2007 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Rob
04-14-2007 12:27 AM


Re: physical reality and morality?
Rob writes:
I am sorry Ringo, it appears that you agree with me. My mistake...
Some moral truth is absolute.
No, I don't agree with you. If you sincerely want to "dialog" with me, you have one more chance to put up an intelligent post.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 12:27 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 4:24 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 195 of 305 (394963)
04-14-2007 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Rob
04-14-2007 4:24 AM


Rob writes:
I said that some truth is absolute.
If you disagree, then you're saying some truth is not absolute (ie. all truth is relative).
No. Disagreeing with your conclusion doesn't necessarily mean deciding that your conclusion is wrong. In this case, it means that you have no basis for your conclusion.
I'm saying that we'd have to know whether or not "some truth is absolute" before we could conclude that "all truth is relative". Until we can agree on at least one truth that is absolute, we can't arrive at a conclusion. In essence, all truth is relative until proven absolute - but the trial isn't over yet.
And since you are the one who claims that "some truth is absolute", the onus is on you - not me - to produce some. (This might not be the proper thread to do that.)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 4:24 AM Rob has replied

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 Message 196 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 12:03 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 197 of 305 (394976)
04-14-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Rob
04-14-2007 12:03 PM


Re: It seems to me to be the proper thread.
Rob writes:
Let's look at Justice, Mercy, and Forgiveness as absolutes.
If we do not simply accept that all of the above are absolute by mere assumption, then we lose all basis for denouncing anything.
So you're saying that the only way to conclude that they are absolutes is by assuming that they are absolutes?
That's no basis for the "dialog" that you claim you want. You can't demand that I accept your examples of "absolutes" with no backup whatsoever.
Pick one of them and demonstrate that it is absolute. We can dialog about the demonstration.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 12:03 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 12:48 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 199 of 305 (394985)
04-14-2007 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Rob
04-14-2007 12:48 PM


Re: It seems to me to be the proper thread.
Rob writes:
That's just it Ringo... on what basis do you deny it?
I haven't denied anything. I'm asking you to show me why I shouldn't deny absolutes.
That is your implication, and I agree that you are correct in insisting upon justice.
I'm not insisting upon justice. I'm asking you to demonstrate what you claim - that justice is absolute.
Your entire thinking process is rooted in the Christian worldview.
You're just making another assumption without backing it up. A house built on flimsy assumptions can not stand.
If you take it away, with what will you judge a statement to be true or false?
You certainly can't just assume that one worldview is true and then compare all other statements to it.
As the OP suggests, everybody has his own perception of reality, his own "worldview". Dialog depends on the ability to subordinate one's own worldview and see the "big picture".
So forget about your Christian worldview. Look at the big picture of justice and show us why it's absolute.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 12:48 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 1:43 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 201 of 305 (394997)
04-14-2007 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Rob
04-14-2007 1:43 PM


Re: It seems to me to be the proper thread.
Rob writes:
To deny one thing implies something else.
Not at all. Denying (or questioning) the "truth" of something doesn't necessarily imply falsity. Sometimes it just means uncertainty.
We're looking for answers here, not assuming them.
You see, one of the tests for truth is undeniability....
You're jumping the gun. We haven't agreed on any "tests for truth" yet.
You asked for a dialog but all you've done is lecture.
Once again: show me why I shouldn't deny your absolutes. Don't just tell me to assume you're right.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 1:43 PM Rob has replied

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 Message 202 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 2:24 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 203 of 305 (395008)
04-14-2007 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Rob
04-14-2007 2:24 PM


Re: It seems to me to be the proper thread.
Rob writes:
Then you are not denying. You used the word deny not me.
There you go again, trying to force your definitions on me.
I am denying that your conclusions are true - not necessarily because they are false but because your "reasoning" gives you no right to draw a conclusion at all.
One more time: demonstrate why you think justice is an absolute.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 2:24 PM Rob has replied

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 Message 204 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 2:50 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 205 of 305 (395011)
04-14-2007 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Rob
04-14-2007 2:50 PM


Re: It seems to me to be the proper thread.
Rob writes:
demonstrate why you think justice is an absolute
Because if it isn't, then all of us are wasting our time....
Non sequitur.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 2:50 PM Rob has replied

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 Message 206 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 3:28 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 207 of 305 (395031)
04-14-2007 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Rob
04-14-2007 3:28 PM


Re: It seems to me to be the proper thread.
Rob writes:
If justice is not absolute, then a non sequitor is meaningless.
Another non sequitur.
Hint: you have to show how the inference follows from the premises.
Without inffering justice, we have no premise.
Now you're confusing inference with assumption. You can use an inference as a premise to draw a further inference. But you can't infer an a priori premise.
Since we all have our own perception of reality, we need some common ground to communicate our perception to others. Language and logic are useful for that, but if you insist on making up your own language and your own logic, you're stuck in a world of your own (a.k.a. de land of de lusion).
Logic is the link we have with other people's reality. If there is any logic to your reality, then lay it out plainly, step by step. All you've done so far is assume your conclusions.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 3:28 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 11:21 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 209 of 305 (395107)
04-14-2007 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Rob
04-14-2007 11:21 PM


Re: It seems to me to be the proper thread.
Rob writes:
Other people's reality? People don't have other realities. They have illusions of such.
What makes one person's reality/illusion "more valid" than another person's?
If I can communicate my version of reality to somebody else, and it agrees to some extent with their version of reality, then we can say that that version has some degree of "objectivity". The greater the consensus about an aspect of reality, the more "objective" it is.
But I have an actual anchor for that belief. I believe it is actually real.
Your level of confidence in your beliefs has nothing to do with their "truth" value. There is nobody so confident as the truly deluded.
The only way to "objectively" examine your reality is to ask somebody else, "Do you see what I see?" Independent confirmation is a safer anchor.
Where is your ontic referent to legitimize your questions?
Questions don't need to be legitimized.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Rob, posted 04-14-2007 11:21 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Rob, posted 04-15-2007 12:03 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 211 of 305 (395110)
04-15-2007 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Rob
04-15-2007 12:03 AM


Re: It seems to me to be the proper thread.
Rob writes:
The consensus in my home (predominantly children 3 to 2 ratio) is that candy and ice cream should be consumed for breakfast lunch and dinner.
That's not an aspect of reality. It's just a conflict of opinions.
If forty people from twenty-nine different cultural backgrounds and seventeen different religions can agree on what's healty for breakfast, that's consensus. That has a chance of being objective.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Rob, posted 04-15-2007 12:03 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Rob, posted 04-15-2007 12:41 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 213 of 305 (395115)
04-15-2007 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Rob
04-15-2007 12:41 AM


Re: It seems to me to be the proper thread.
Rob writes:
Whether or not it reflects reality is not relevant to the sample size.
I didn't say anything about "reflecting reality". I said that we can be more confident of our version of reality if it tallies with the consensus. The whole consensus idea is just a safety valve, a filter to eliminate as much individual error as possible, to avoid being a slave to one's own delusions.
I don't buy the consensus argument as an extreme, but it is an indicator.
Doesn't matter a bit whether or not you buy it. If you have specific objections to it, let's hear 'em.
You agree with Lewis then in that regard?
When Lewis becomes a member of this forum, I'll comment on his ideas.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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