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Author Topic:   Perceptions of Reality
warner
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 305 (358039)
10-21-2006 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Brad McFall
10-14-2006 9:02 PM


Re: Reality: What a concept!
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to reply to. But take for example the possibility of the unseen supernatural. I don't know where to discuss it, but it is taught throughout the Bible and I have tested in various ways its (what would you call it?) possibility. I can only go by my personal experience and that of those I trust dearly. Other than that, my findings could be supported by a host of others but I know that it would not do to 'just believe' it 'unless' however, all that they say is uncannily and prophetically accurate. (When I say prophetically, I mean it was said before hand that such and such would happen if you did such and such and thus when you did it, it was so. Prophetic may not be the best word here but hopefully you get the point.) I do not pretend to know the intricacies of our existance. But I do desire to know and so look into these things. Since I am a Christian, I go about learning by first praying and asking God for wisdom. (I believe that God is real because He has made Himself real to me in various scientifically unexplainable ways. Therefore He is my point at which I begin my search) I'm sure that probably sounds to some the same as me saying "I pray to my dog and he barks" but nevertheless, it is what I do, and the difference between the two, is when God speaks, He answers in ways a dog could never, nor another human for that matter. I might ask Him, in my mind, a question. I wait for a reply for that is what I am taught to do. To wait on the Lord. Then, He answers me with such an answer that I have never conceived. I will have a dream, (for I believe when He says He will guide us with dreams) about an incident that has not yet happened but a week later did of which I was prepared for and knew what to do. Sounds whacky I'm sure of it but I cannot make it sound any less I'm afraid. It is what it is and I will not attempt to make it sound rational. For me, because I have chosen to believe in God, it's as though He is like a personal instructor to me. He gives me solutions to problems in many various ways. And when its the answer I'm looking for, He tells me so. Like a nudge or a voice in my mind that says "thats the answer to 'this' question" or He will make comparisons from the things He teaches throughout the Bible and say "thats the same as that" like He's fashioning a modern day parable specifically to fit my understanding and so that I might help others to understand those truths. Simply put, the truths that are written in the Word of God specifically the New Testament, is that they work. Whether or not there is a formula explaining them, I wouldn't doubt there is, but no formula we have yet tapped into. But again, I believe what He says that one day 'we will know as we are known'. Its the crazy house thats really sane! It's the ludicrous idea put to the test, to find that it actually works! This is God. Just think if that possibility were true? Where would that lead the problems and how would that sum up the equations? To find out that all of our calculations and diggings turned up that we are looking at the wrong body of evidence. I do not mind answering any questions. That is if I'm not kicked off for being in the "wrong forum!" (that has happened before. I can't seem to find my place here.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Brad McFall, posted 10-14-2006 9:02 PM Brad McFall has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2006 11:02 PM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 305 (358293)
10-23-2006 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by RAZD
10-21-2006 11:02 PM


Re: Reality: What a concept!
The problem is not to explain this experience\phenomena in terms of your personal experience but to explain it and similar experiences\phenomena in ALL other religions by people all over the world. One conclusion is that all gods must exist. Another is that is doesn't matter WHAT you believe.
Yes I do agree! As unscientific as it sounds, these things do seem to happen in all sorts of religions. My belief is wholeheartedly in the word of God. It is the standard that I compare all things to simply because I believe that there is a God and that the Christian God is the Almighty God above all other gods as the Bible declares. How and why have I concluded this is simple.
Science is great in that it explains a great deal about what we see and touch. I love it for that purpose and I think it is God ordained. True science and God are interconnected of course (in my opinion) because I believe that God is the creator of all that we see, therefore it is His science. True science does not disprove a God, it proves Him. I know that probably has a scientific blasphemous ring to it. My problem though, is not explaining the natural but the supernatural. The natural can be explained in the natural and the supernatural. But more interestingly to me, is that the Word of God (christian God) declares that the “unseen things can be understood by the seen things, even unto the Godhead” (paraphrased) Apparently God did not want to hide Himself in His creation, but expose Himself. Some scientist say, “I know it seems highly improbable that what we see has happened as it seems it has happened, but the proof is here before us” and I say they are right! Which makes the highly improbable idea of a God that created it possible! Do you see what I’m saying? The word says that “he looks for people who wish to understand to reveal truth to” (paraphrased) If indeed there are supernatural governing forces, then I would conclude that it would be quite scientific to see into them. We should seek EAGERLY into what we can about them. To find out indeed WHICH supernatural authority is indeed in charge. I would love to discuss this with a levelheaded person. Concerning other religions I do not contend their existence nor the powers within them. There is substantiated reason for these other gods. They are in subjection to the supreme God. It is all accounted for in the word of God. All the way down to science. The problem is making that which is unexplainable to science, believable to science, enough so, that they would venture into a different direction with their search. To consider that there are other forms of experimentations to be done and reckoned with. Do you suppose that maybe they might be afraid to find out that there is a God? A God that expects obedience to His laws? I sometimes think, that that in itself would stem somebody to disprove the existence of the pesky supernatural possibility of a God in charge.
Then again, I would think that it would strike a certain dread in them, in the private center of themselves, to not consider this possibility that claims authority over their very existence.
Do you know what the word of God has to say concerning this desire that we have to not want to die?
Maybe you already know, just thought I’d ask. If you would like to know I will tell you.
I agree that I cannot exclude the perceptions of others that are less fantastic.
I think its all fantastic that we care enough to seek it out.
Thanks for your time and input.
P.S.
I'm a little slow, and didn't get the dyslexic joke
Edited by warner, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by RAZD, posted 10-21-2006 11:02 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by warner, posted 10-23-2006 11:44 AM warner has replied
 Message 70 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2006 6:49 PM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 305 (358295)
10-23-2006 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by warner
10-23-2006 11:35 AM


Re: Reality: What a concept!
The problem is not to explain this experience\phenomena in terms of your personal experience but to explain it and similar experiences\phenomena in ALL other religions by people all over the world. One conclusion is that all gods must exist. Another is that is doesn't matter WHAT you believe.
The above was supposed to be in a quote box
Edited by AdminJar, : Fix quote box warner, use peek and you can see how it was done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by warner, posted 10-23-2006 11:35 AM warner has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by warner, posted 10-23-2006 11:46 AM warner has not replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 305 (358296)
10-23-2006 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by warner
10-23-2006 11:44 AM


Re: Reality: What a concept!
i forgotthe steps for a quote box! HELP

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by warner, posted 10-23-2006 11:44 AM warner has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by AdminJar, posted 10-23-2006 11:49 AM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 305 (358387)
10-23-2006 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by AdminJar
10-23-2006 11:49 AM


Re: quote box
you guys are really on top of things here!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by AdminJar, posted 10-23-2006 11:49 AM AdminJar has not replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 305 (358406)
10-23-2006 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by RAZD
10-23-2006 6:49 PM


Re: Reality: What a concept!
You then talk almost exclusively about your personal faith. But not about any way to validate that perception
Well... then what sort of questions must I answer do you think for us to come to some discoveries. I talk of my personal faith because it is my validated proof of my faith. I cannot tell you about the experiences of others, but they could. You would have to gather information about their experiences from them and mine from me.
It's a little more complicated than that.
I'm not familiar with the wide variety of problems as you probably are. I would be happy to offer whatever insight that I could from my own experiences.
We also know from some brain scan studies that catholic nuns praying and tibetan monks in meditation have the same basic brain pattern, one different from normal waking or sleeping patterns.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1847442.stm
thanks for the info. Concerning the above mentioned. I'm not sure why we might assume that the supernatural occurances could be detected with brain scans. Not to say that they can't. But because none were detected does not mean that they didn't. And prayer is not considered a supernatural occurance I wouldn't think.
It would seem that the personal experience is shaped by the preconceptions of the person rather than by the experience.
If you are concluding the above statement from the brain scan test then you might be considered one who is out to prove that supernatural occurances are somehow self-contrived. I'm not talking about a high here, I'm talking about real miracles. You can't preconcieve an event that has not taken place no matter how spiritually high you are! lol! Don't get me wrong, I know there are cases just like that, but don't let that deter you from discovering the real ones. I hope that doesn't make me sound arrogant. I probably at one time fell into that catagory. Mixing my emotions with religion causing a superficial high. What I'm talking about is a whole lot more serious. Healings, visions, and dreams of a prophetic nature. The kind of things that make doctors scratch their heads and wonder what happened. Scientifically, it shouldn't have, but it did. What would have been called by scientist impossible suddenly is true. That is God.
We also know that a similar pattern can be induced by a magnetic field and the person (generally) has a 'religious' experience.
thats assuming they even know what defines a religious experience. Magnetic fields do not create the kind of things I'm talking about.
Fewer preconceptions about the experience and greater variety of perception of what the experience entailed.
This means we can validate the mental experience by it's outward appearance even if we cannot validate the content.
I think I follow you here. But again, I think you are completely on the wrong track concerning these experiences as you keep calling them. These are not experiences that you could track in such a way I do not think. It's like trying to track where the next lightening will strike and how. Or something similar that is impossible to predict. God is not to be put to the test. That is in His word. That does not mean you cannot find it out however. Just not in that way. It's like me saying, you are welcome to come to my home, but you must come dressed properly, and ring the front door bell and wait for the door to opened to you. You of course are not allowed to sneak in, break in, or enter in from any other means. And I am able to see to it that you do not.
I'm a little slow, and didn't get the dyslexic joke
It's an from old old joke about a dyslexic agnostic based on the popular misconception that dyslexics see words backwards - he wasn't sure if he believedhe existed
i fink eye dits it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2006 6:49 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2006 9:26 PM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 305 (358606)
10-24-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by RAZD
10-23-2006 9:26 PM


Re: Reality: What a concept!
I talk of my personal faith because it is my validated proof of my faith. I cannot tell you about the experiences of others,...
What interests me is that such experiences are common, and it makes me wonder if you could take exactly the same experience you had, but cast it in a different faith perspective, say that of a Theravada Buddhist, would the conclusions and behavior\choice\feeling of direction be the same?
you know its real important to address the issue here that needs to be addressed. There are many aspects to this topic that could be addressed but the one I feel is the most important is the idea that there actually is a spiritual realm in which spiritual powers and authorities dwell. If that can be logically proven, and I think it could if we were to accept into reality the most obvious two question that are seemingly ignored by science. And I think science (should, would), need and want to know the answers to these questions, in order to deny the spiritual realm its existance. I'm sure these questions already have forums created for discussion.
The questions being:
" Why are we here and why does it seem evident that the universe was waiting for us?"
Can we and should we ignore the evidences of the supernatural in all of history wheather good or bad experiences. Are we to truly assume that all these people who claim the existance of the supernatural are indeed idiots who cannot come to grip with the proposed reality that declares, 'all that is here is what you see with your eyes?' and so therefore project supernatural wonders into their realities to explain the unexplainable? Is science content to say, "I know all that we see seems impossible but look, there it is" and just stop at that? Shouldn't we be investigating the possibility of what seems so obvious. When something so intelligent comes into existence bearing with it unique realities and environments that are specifically crafted to cater to that existance in such a balance that traumatizes the idea of it being 'chanced' into existance. Shouldn't we at least be inclined to think that superintelligent should most likely come from something intelligent?
It's so logical to conclude that, and so illogical to not.
To say that super intelligence came from chance is like telling me that fire comes from cold and cold comes from fire. (The example is meant to make a point, not to incite the urge to disprove the example itself)
And since logic is part of our science procedure, shouldn't we consider the logic of that last statement?
What about reckoning with the emotions and mental facilities of man?
Do they not count in our scientific findings? Should we not attempt to unite facts and findings with logical reasoning? I think that scientist already do.
Take for instance the wind. There are no pictures of it but yet we can prove its existance by seeing what it does and by feeling it. We conclude that it must be there because we can both feel it and we see its effect. We believe in love though it is not an object that can be touched or examined but an emotion that is real and causes one to behave a certain way. The same way with anger. Are we to conclude that anger is not part of the pieces to this puzzle? Fear? Where did these emotions come from? Why do we have them? It seems as though they have a specific purpose. What about pain? We are equipped with pain sensorys that help us to establish what is safe for us and what is not. Why are we so equipped with such things? I know these are alot of questions and don't expect you to answer each one. Just some thoughts I have.
I wouldn't think prayer or meditation or any other religious observance would qualify as supernatural behavior. We would need someone performing a miracle to scan at the time the miracle was performed and be able to validate that it was in fact a miracle eh? That kind of thing seems to be in remarkably short supply.
Yes I agree but again, to the issue, which is, is their a spiritual realm where spirits dwell and have some sort of communication with us humans, and if so, shouldn't we look into this? If you could find one miracle and prove it was authentic, wouldn't that suffice to say, we have an entire seperate realm worthy of investigating and contemplating when doing our scientific research?
If you are concluding the above statement from the brain scan test then you might be considered one who is out to prove that supernatural occurances are somehow self-contrived.
No, I am just skeptical of the specific interpretations, given that similar experiences can have entirely different specific interpretations.
If you are even considering a spiritual realm at all, would it be so simple as to say, well if it was this way for this person then it should be that way for that person? If another realm exists with beings that are different interacting with beings that are individuals having in themselves differences, why should we expect it to be the same. On the contrary, I would expect not one to be the same.
I will have to finish my response later
thanks for your time

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by RAZD, posted 10-23-2006 9:26 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 10-24-2006 8:09 PM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 305 (358869)
10-25-2006 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
10-24-2006 8:09 PM


Re: Spiritual Logic
this takes soooo long. Is there any way for us to chat this out? I've thought alot about what you've said and it makes alot of sense. I'm thinking I'm coming to the conclusion that science and the supernatural are like from different planets. And though we may see evidence and signs of the one from the other planet it is not in such a way that science can test it. I can understand that.
The only other thing that maybe I might be misunderstanding the evolutionists to believe, and maybe there are as many kinds of evolutionists as there are kinds of christians if you know what i mean... but, the only thing that I have a problem with is why don't they teach at least the possiblility of a divine creator? Or do they? You mentioned that when science doesn't know one way or another that is what they report. That they don't know. Do you think there is bad blood between the two sides and they both think that if they somehow agree with one another then that means that that would make them a 'believer' one way or the other? I was just wondering you know. Trying to understand whats really going on with this evolution/creation thing.
I have alot to think about and STILL think that there must be a way to unite the two if indeed they are both true. And I believe that they are, its my theory anyway. Well, I'd love to chat this out so that I could come to quicker conclusions than this.
Let me know if thats possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 10-24-2006 8:09 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2006 8:06 PM warner has replied
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2006 8:56 PM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 305 (359162)
10-26-2006 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by RAZD
10-26-2006 8:06 PM


Re: philos+sophy
Well, Radz,
I'm guessing your right here. Speaking of experiences. Lets pretend for one minute that i'm someone you trust and I relay an experience to you. Tell me what you think.
I have a dream about somebody. The dream tells me what they're up to and other things significant. Two days later I see that person and find that the dream was right.
Now, lets say this happens on a regular basis, say 2 times a month on average. Some of these people I havent seen in a while some in a long while.
But it always happens the same.
What about a particular vision that I had once.
I was lying down and we were driving at night. I was lying down in the back of the van thinking. Thinking about God and stuff and wondering about everything. Then in my mind I saw the road in front of us as it were night. I saw an animal on the side of the road. It was strange looking to me because it had a big body and a tiny head. It was looking across the road like it was scared and contemplating running across. That was it.
About 15 minutes later, I felt like I should tell my husband I guess because it stuck with me for some reason, oh yea, and I couldn't get the animal out of my mind because I couldn't figure out what it was. When I told him what I saw in my mind he said "Really!" and he asked me what exactly I saw and I explained it exactly as I saw it. He said, "About 5 minutes ago, I passed a deer on the side of the road. And I said, "No, but it didn't look like a deer. It didn't have antlers." He said, "No, this was a female deer, and it didn't have antlers." When he said female deer it hit me, that that was indeed the animal in my mind. Big body small head. He said it looked as though it might run across. Anyway, I know it seems like nothing but then again, how do you explain that?
My husband is in the ministry and we help alot of people. One guy in particular that we've helped for many years came back in our life and he was pretty bad on crack. My husband had a dream that he died. He didn't see how it happened just that he heard a shot and knew he had died. A week later he died. He was killed over drugs.
Stuff like this happens to us all the time. Two nights ago I had a dream about a friend of mine that we helped out a few months back I guess three. She wasn't really ready for help and so she left. Two nights ago I have a dream about her. There was something wrong with her and in the dream I said, "I need to get Blaine" (thats my husband first name Warner) 2 days later, she calls from a shelter. It's amazing to me. God always lets us know when people are about to come into our lives and what they need in some way. So that we can be prepared with how to deal with them it seems to me. These are the experiences, I have regularly. I don't know what your beliefs are and it really doesn't matter to me personally and I'm not even sure why I'm telling you this stuff. I guess because I feel like you have the right to know these things and I don't feel threatened by telling you. Anyway. I'm sure you may have thought I was a guy up till now, didn't mean to mislead you. For some reason, when they know I'm a female I don't seem to get as much respect. lol!
Dumb blonde stuff I guess. Not even a blonde! Anyway, thanks so much for your time and advice. I really enjoyed discussing these things rationally with someone. I will consider all that you have said and don't forget to give me your take on what I shared. If you want to.
If not, take care and see you perhaps in another forum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2006 8:06 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2006 8:06 PM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 305 (359177)
10-26-2006 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by RAZD
10-26-2006 8:56 PM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
You see, I would think that the well I can speak personally, that it seems unscientific to exclude the possibility of the divine since they have no proof against it. We have no proof for it but yet no proof against it either. Even to admit that evolutions beginnings are "possibly divine". I think it's that that has us fundamentalists uptight. That evolutionists leave no room for our idea of how it all began. Even though they have no evidence disproving it. Meaning the beginning of the evolution process. And the idea that it was orchestrated by divine intelligence and not by natural selection.
Edited by warner, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2006 8:56 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2006 11:09 PM warner has not replied
 Message 81 by Nighttrain, posted 10-27-2006 3:19 AM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 305 (359309)
10-27-2006 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Nighttrain
10-27-2006 3:19 AM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
It has come to my understanding that whatever evidence that "I" have for my beliefs will not suffice as evidence for yours. That I cannot help.
I wish I could, for it is like getting a secret insight to something you are not allowed specifically because you are not in the right place to see/get a view of it and hear/feel/experience the evidence of it.
If I burned you with fire, could you say that the scar is evidence that you were burned?
If you fall down and break your leg, would you say that the crack in the bone that shows up on the x ray is evidencs that it is indeed cracked.
The divine my friend, I have experienced and continue to experience. One can philosophically explain the divine but then that is none of your concern as a sceintist now is it.
Howbeit you use philosophy for many a thing that requires philosophy to be used and that is as close as you will probably get to the divine unfortunately. Unless you have a change of mind. Perhaps a miracle of some sort to cause you to reckon that science may be right in what it knows but that it does "not" know everything. Some things I see that it can never know since the world of the divine is not of the same material as we are accustomed to studying. We apply natural laws in our discoveries and rightfully so. But with the supernatural, we deal with different kind of laws.
Its like that leg break
before we had x rays we could only feel the pain of the broken leg.
As technology improved we developed something that allowed us to see the evidence with our sight not just our feeling of that break.
Because we couldn't see it before the x ray did not make it any less broken.
The same is true I believe with the supernatural.
Alot of it is felt physically as with a miraculous healing.
In that case you do have physical evidence of something that was there that shouldn't have gone away but it has with no scientific explanation.
You do not have to believe it until maybe it happens to you or a close loved one.
Then at least you will have to reckon with it.
You will find that you cannot scientifically explain it which makes it "super" natural.
I have had many experiences that are miraculous. I have tried to scientifically explain them away. Maybe you could help me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Nighttrain, posted 10-27-2006 3:19 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 10-27-2006 12:06 PM warner has not replied
 Message 84 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2006 1:54 AM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 305 (359534)
10-28-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Nighttrain
10-28-2006 1:54 AM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
I`m not querying on my behalf, but for believers who went screaming in agony to their deaths while calling on the divine. So you have the gift and all the others were misguided? Seems the least a God could do is let you pass on the secret to the favoured.
as Jesus would have told his accusers "you do err because you do not know the scriptures nor the power of God"
You'll have to put up with Bible quotes since you are inquiring about the Divine. And those who call out to the Divine should not mind it when you pass it to them.
So let me ask you a question. The answer to my question will be the answer for yours to me.
How is it that you know so much about science and I don't?
Do you possess some secret that I cannot get to???
You don't understand why God does what He does, therefore He must be unjust. Like a spoiled child that doesn't understand why mommy or daddy doesn't let them play in the street. Or why after numerous times being told what to do, mommy or daddy set boundaries and a discipline if you cross them.
If you can comprehend it in the natural laws (touch the fire you get burned) then it's the same way with God's laws. They were set in advance as well as the consequences.
Since we have the gift of choice to do with as we please then, isn't it up to us to make informed decisions?
Ignorance kills. You can smoke cigarettes and not know they are harmful but your ignorance will not save you from killing yourself. You will not be punished for sin because sin is to know to do right and to not do it, but you will still reap what is sown in the natural laws.
I'm not violating a spiritual law if I plant corn at the wrong season. But I will not have a good crop of corn nevertheless because I violated a natural law.
Its cause and effect. For every law there is a consequence, whether unto keeping it or breaking it. You throw the ball up it comes down, if you move out of the way you will not be hit. There is the law and its consequences if you follow it and consequences if you do not.
If you can thus grasp God's laws in the same fashion you would be a whole lot comfortable about the matter. But as it stands you do not have a proper perspective and therefore it "seems" as though you have an unfair and mean God.
If a child did not understand the law of gravity and they threw the ball up and it came down upon their head and it hurt them and they turned to you in tears and said, "Why did you let that happen!" You would probably laugh a little and explain the law of gravity. You would tell them, that you did not cause that to happen, that it happens whether or not you want it to. Therefore if you do not want to get hit in the head with the ball, do not stand under it when you throw it up into the air. You would be sorry that they got hurt and you would do your best to prevent them from doing it again like explaining how it works and reminding of them how it hurts when you do it wrong.
The same is true with God and the spiritual laws. Unfortunately, the spiritual laws and their consequences are often times not felt immediately. Like hand in fire burns instantly. Often times it is more of a long term effect. Slow death. Like crack cocaine. It feels so good at first, you would have a hard time telling the person doing crack that they are killing themselves.
Or you have a hard time convincing your children to be concerned with rotting teeth from candy when all they know is the pleasure of the candy. Ten years later however you will not have to say a thing because they are finding out the hard way due to their choice of listening to the pleasure instead of the law.
The same is true for every sin. It has its consequences. Sometimes the consequences are seen in the children. This may seem unfair, and it is, that is why God despises us to disobey, because He knows it brings death. The same reason you despise when your children disobey. Its not that you despise the children, its that you despise that they have to hurt and suffer and there is nothing you can do about it but try your best to get them to see the error of their way. Have you ever tried to tell a friend over and over that a particular act would simply lead to their misery and they refused to listen to you. You could get on your knees and beg them and they still did not listen. What more can you do? You do what God does after makeing more numerous efforts than you or I ever would to save them, you would allow them to do it their way. Do you like to do that? No, because it hurts you to see them get hurt, but alas, short of holding their hand to the fire, you can do nothing else.
Choice is a beautiful thing, until you use those choices to violate laws that were meant to be obeyed.
You have a car to get yourself from place to place. But if you begin to use that car to violate laws and cause yourself or others pain, then you have a problem. Whether you know it or not does not change that fact.
And who are you to be angry at God?
Have you seen all the attempts that He has made before he resorts to "allowing them their choice?" Have you even seen all the times He saved them from the pain in hopes to talk sense into them before they get hurt? Only to have them think they are doing something right and that is why they were spared when in actuallity they are being given chance after chance?
You slander God so freely and yet He does not strike you down. Not yet. And when you do get struck down, it will not be by Him, it will be by your choice, your way of saying, not your will be done, but mine. You will make yourself god and you will break a law when you do that and you will feel the consequences of such a broken law just like everybody else.
You say, well if there is a God then why is He unfair?
You look at one suffering and you shake your fist at God. Why do you lt this one suffer and spare that one? You rage.
But all you see is the end of the story. You do not see the beginning the middle and the end. Even if you did you do not see the heart, or the spiritual. That is where God is concerned for it is where sin has its seed. God looks at things that you cannot see with your eyes. It is not for you to see. But that does not mean He cannot give you eyes to see. And when you do see, you will be like the scientist with the microscope. You will see the invisible things that are not apparent to the naked eye. You will see the why behind the what.
Isa 29:14 So once again I will do things that shock and amaze them, and I will destroy the wisdom of those who claim to know and understand."
Pro 28:5 Criminals don't know what justice means, but all who respect the LORD understand it completely.
Pro 9:10 Respect and obey the LORD! This is the beginning of wisdom. To have understanding, you must know the Holy God.
Then you will put your hand over your mouth and realize you have committed a grave sin against a very loving God that you do not know.
And yet, He will offer you the same salvation if you should choose. Despite all your false accusations. He knows that you are at a disadvantage because their is an enemy of God that schemes to lead you astray and slander the most High God, so that seeing, you will not see, and hearing you will not hear.
His mercy is not seen because how do you know what you have been spared if you did not fall into it?
You never know the mercy of God because you look and say all is well without Him. And even still He has commanded your angel to look after you in all your goings, to be available if ever you should choose Him. And even when you are deciding to choose he is there helping you and speaking to you. You are not accustomed to His voice therefore you do not recognize it. And the enemy is also speaking to you and those thoughts are at odds with God's will. If you believe the thoughts and ideas of the enemy then you will soon not even listen to God's voice.
You break the rules, you suffer the consequences.
You think that is unfair? Then you just as well think gravity is unfair. Because the spiritual laws whether you believe it or not are just like the natural in principal. The consequences are set into place at the time the law is created. It is beyond Gods plan to break that law, BUT, since He is God, He does have the ability to exercise the supernatural in CERTAIN circumstances. You would have to know the laws well to understand that. Not many people do.
An example of this would be:
Two people suffer the same disease. One is an elderly man the other a born again christian.
The born again christian has known God for 5 years and the elderly man has just come to know Him.
The born again christian is not healed but the elderly man is.
Some look and do not understand. Though the situations look the same they are very different. The details surrounding the sickness are very different.
Its like a 2 year old and a 12 year old. Both commit the same crime. You might laugh and say a 2 year old cannot commit a crime or break a rule. You would be right. The 12 year old can however. So, there are different sets of rules for different levels or ages. Different consequences as well. The further we go with God the more we learn, the more we learn, the more we are accountable to.
If you play around after knowing the truth then it is more difficult to get healed, its like knowingly playing with danger. Sin is not something to toy with. The more you toy with it the harder it is to overcome. It's like a tree that roots into the soul of man. Once it is rooted in good, it requires a great deal of prayer and fasting and soul seeking to overcome. But it can be done and has been done. That is why you cannot judge one persons healing over another. Most sicknesses are a reaping of what was sown. The sickness is a sign that some law has been compromised whether physical or spiritual. We are bound by both.
So to think that God plays favorites is a grave error.
That is if you mean it in the sense that He likes one over another for no good reason.
The reason some get things that others do not has its laws in that too as I demonstrated above. Then there are the times when what seems to you the outsider as cruel injustice in fact is not.
To spare somebody from death is not always mercy.
Especially if God were to be taking them back to Himself. God can see what kind of life that person or child is going to have to endure we cannot. If He thinks it would be better for them to be removed all together, then He does it.
Think of it this way. When you have a sick child that has to take really nasty medicine and they scream and cry to not take it, who would seem to be the saviour? Mommy might say, "O.k. never mind don't make her take that horrible stuff" and daddy might say "you must take the yucky medicine if you want to be better"
If you ask the ignorant child who has no understanding, they would think mommy is nice and daddy is mean.
The same is true on a Godly level. If you seek to disprove God and make Him out to be a meanie, then you will probably find many scriptures to do so. But if you seek to understand Him you will be able to find "all" the pieces to the puzzle and put them together and see an entire picture instead of grabbing at a few and complaining that none of it makes sense. Of cours it wouldn't just like if I had half of any story it would not come out right because it is not complete.
To give you a better picture from the Word of God what indeed God has done for us please read the following. Concerning sin and death there is very much to be learned. This is who God is and what He has done for us.
Heb 13:20 God gives peace, and he raised our Lord Jesus Christ from death. Now Jesus is like a Great Shepherd whose blood was used to make God's eternal agreement with his flock.
Heb 11:31 Rahab had been a prostitute, but she had faith and welcomed the spies. So she wasn't killed with the people who disobeyed.
Heb 11:32 What else can I say? There isn't enough time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets.
Heb 11:33 Their faith helped them conquer kingdoms, and because they did right, God made promises to them. They closed the jaws of lions
Heb 11:34 and put out raging fires and escaped from the swords of their enemies. Although they were weak, they were given the strength and power to chase foreign armies away.
Heb 11:35 Some women received their loved ones back from death. Many of these people were tortured, but they refused to be released. They were sure that they would get a better reward when the dead are raised to life.
Heb 11:36 Others were made fun of and beaten with whips, and some were chained in jail.
Heb 11:37 Still others were stoned to death or sawed in two or killed with swords. Some had nothing but sheep skins or goat skins to wear. They were poor, mistreated, and tortured.
Heb 11:38 The world did not deserve these good people, who had to wander in deserts and on mountains and had to live in caves and holes in the ground.
Heb 11:39 All of them pleased God because of their faith! But still they died without being given what had been promised.
Heb 11:40 This was because God had something better in store for us. And he did not want them to reach the goal of their faith without us.
(it seems as though God is cruel to not give them their reward. But is He? He is a Father of many and did not want to leave the rest of us without an opportunity. He allowed them to be a sacrifice for a "greater good". To save more.)
Heb 9:14 But Christ was sinless, and he offered himself as an eternal and spiritual sacrifice to God. That's why his blood is much more powerful and makes our consciences clear. Now we can serve the living God and no longer do things that lead to death.
Heb 2:14 We are people of flesh and blood. That is why Jesus became one of us. He died to destroy the devil, who had power over death.
Rom 5:6 Christ died for us at a time when we were helpless and sinful.
Rom 5:7 No one is really willing to die for an honest person, though someone might be willing to die for a truly good person.
Rom 5:8 But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful.
Rom 5:9 But there is more! Now that God has accepted us because Christ sacrificed his life's blood, we will also be kept safe from God's anger.
Rom 5:10 Even when we were God's enemies, he made peace with us, because his Son died for us.
Rom 5:11 And in addition to everything else, we are happy because God sent our Lord Jesus Christ to make peace with us.
Rom 5:12 Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned, and so everyone must die.
Rom 5:13 Sin was in the world before the Law came. But no record of sin was kept, because there was no Law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death still had power over all who lived from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. This happened, though not everyone disobeyed a direct command from God, as Adam did. In some ways Adam is like Christ who came later.
Rom 5:15 But the gift that God was kind enough to give was very different from Adam's sin. That one sin brought death to many others. Yet in an even greater way, Jesus Christ alone brought God's gift of kindness to many people.
Rom 5:16 There is a lot of difference between Adam's sin and God's gift. That one sin led to punishment. But God's gift made it possible for us to be acceptable to him, even though we have sinned many times.
Rom 5:17 Death ruled like a king because Adam had sinned. But that cannot compare with what Jesus Christ has done. God has been so kind to us, and he has accepted us because of Jesus. And so we will live and rule like kings.
Rom 5:18 Everyone was going to be punished because Adam sinned. But because of the good thing that Christ has done, God accepts us and gives us the gift of life.
Rom 5:19 Adam disobeyed God and caused many others to be sinners. But Jesus obeyed him and will make many people acceptable to God.
Rom 5:20 The Law came, so that the full power of sin could be seen. Yet where sin was powerful, God's kindness was even more powerful.
Rom 5:21 Sin ruled by means of death. But God's kindness now rules, and God has accepted us because of Jesus Christ our Lord. This means that we will have eternal life.
1Co 15:22 Adam brought death to all of us, and Christ will bring life to all of us.
Only He can do that under the "new" law that He has put into place that allows us to have the consequence of our sin paid for by His own blood.
So therefore you should have learned that though some things seem unjust does not mean that they are.
And that you should know all the details before slandering somebody, especially God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2006 1:54 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2006 11:59 PM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 305 (359646)
10-29-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Nighttrain
10-28-2006 11:59 PM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
And you should know the real Scriptures before quoting them. Care to show me the originals? Being on first-name terms should give you an inside edge to what really was written. Show us the beginning.
is that ALL you have to say? Show me the original writings???
So what if you see the ORIGINAL writings, do you read Hebrew and Greek??
Will it make you a believer if I showed you the writings???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2006 11:59 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2006 7:36 PM warner has not replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 305 (359735)
10-29-2006 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by RAZD
10-29-2006 8:06 PM


Re: philos+sophy -- perceptions of what you see based on what you know
These may just as easily be perceptions from other sources,
Could you elaborate a little on the 'other sources' because I've tried to imagine other sources and could not come up with any.
For some reason, when they know I'm a female I don't seem to get as much respect.
Why do you think that happens? Does sex change the way reality is perceived? How would it do that? Plus you say this happens to both you and your husband ...
No, but I would say that sex changes the reality because of the perception.
For expample when a man speaks to a man he thinks in manly terms, but when he speaks to a woman he thinks, that perhaps the reality is not the same for them and therefore they must speak differently to them for that reason. So, even though reality doesn't really change the logical reasoning changes gear to serve the disadvantage many men think women are naturally given because she is physically weaker than he and tied up into her emotions. For the most part they are right. It takes alot of discipline for me, more specifically, training by my husband to not think with my emotions when it comes to logic and to put things in their proper perspective. Plus there is the long winded problem that alot of women deal with because of this semi/false reality placed upon them that makes them feel the necessity to explain things five different ways to be sure you get the point. This I believe comes from a womans job of having to explain things to children. Its actually an excellent quality in the adult world because of the intricacies involved in communication. It can be a bother to men because they think they get the point already. But women know the problems of communication and so they are careful to explain themselves in depth not because men are like children to them but that the language is complex and requires care when using it to explain complex things.
I'll come back and respond to the rest in a moment.
The question is - regardless of sex and faith and race and any other demographic - how do we determine perceptions of reality are based on reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2006 8:06 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by RAZD, posted 10-30-2006 7:41 PM warner has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 305 (360215)
10-31-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by RAZD
10-30-2006 7:41 PM


Re: philos+sophy -- perceptions of what you see based on what you know
Telepathy, sensations out of sync with time, extra-sensory perceptions, as a repository of sensing spirit world items, making predictions, etcetera, with different perceptions of who is causing them.
has telepathy been scientifically proven or is it a belief? I'm not sure what do you say?
sensations out of sync with time?
How is that possible? I mean scientifically.
extra sensory perceptions...
would dreaming a dream about something happening a week in advance fall into that category? Or seeing something in my mind that has not yet occurred and there be no logical reason for it to occur. It was a real picture in my mind in that I could describe it to detail. What made it supernatural was that the vision or picture I described took place before the event actually occurred. I myself did not see it. I guess I could say my husband lied. But that is out of character for him.
I looked it up and it says that it means perception outside the range of normal sense perception. (gee that was informative!)
Thanks to the american heritage dictionary.
Either way, it looks like your suggesting something that science cannot prove. Maybe you are and so I'm guessing that perhaps you do not think that there is "no" supernatural but that "whose" supernatural is "the" supernatural "one" in which to beleive.
If that is the case, I'm in agreement. If somebody tells me they have had a supernatural experience, I have no reason to think them a liar. And to think that all have lied about their experiences in order to promote their religion I find..well not impossible but highly improbable. Like the evolution thing. Anyway, so, if then 1 percent of the whole told the truth about the supernatural experience, then we must contend with that one percent.
So we would have to determine that they were not all suffering from an altered reality??? Which would look like what exactly? A kindergarden example would be great if you can manage it. I know sometimes its hard to simplify these things down to the lowest term possible but I would appreciate it. I do this with my husbands brother all the time who is the intellect in both perception and "word" if you know what I mean. He may say, a sentence involving a series of words I've never heard of and when I question him to the point of vaguely getting at the heart of the idea I usually end with saying, "oh so your saying blah blah blah blah blah" ("blah" for lack of example)but the example is basically one of reducing the explanation to at least a Jack and Jill level. It's fun you ought to try it, I have to do it all the time with the kids. See how long I took explaining all that???
O.k. next
No question that no two people can share the same experience, and that there is a sexual divide based on different {agenda\need\ability}, but this doesn't change data, information, logic. It may change the way fantasies are constructed, but anyone can base a world view on a fantasy (such as that men are superior to women).
I did not mean to infer that the sex of a human changes the reality of an experience. It may give one a different view of the reality. Since reality is multifaceted and it takes a well rounded person to see the many facets it has. Hence the saying "there's more to that than meets the eye" It is so true, and I believe that man is more apt to see things with certain eyes and women see things with different eyes. No two sights supercede the other but both are necessary. I feel God made the woman in such a way to "aid" the man in life. Hence the term "help meet" The man and the woman are a lock and a key. One without the other is useless. Its not that it cannot be done but God said that it was "not good for man to be alone" and I "believe" that. There I go believing stuff again.
I'm sure it can be scientifically proven. Probably has.
What does it mean when you believe in something before it is proven by science?
And concerning your final statement about the fantasy of men being superior, I do not think it is a fantasy. They are in fact superior in many things but then so are women above men in many things. There is nothing wrong with being superior, only in demeaning the existance of another in connection with your superiorness. (is that a word?)
For the same size? We shouldn't mistake sexual dimorphism size for physical ability. The gorilla and chimpanzee are much stronger than human because they have a slightly longer leverage arm where their muscles attach to the bones (and if you look at your arm and visualize where the tendon attaches to the forearm to allow lifting of objects it is obviously near the fulcrum of the elbow, so a small increase there makes a major difference in strength). There is no similar difference between sexes.
under normal circumstances its plain to see that women are more emotional (meaning they are more sensitive to the emotional because the role they are in is a nurturing role (keen to seeing emotional needs. They seem to be naturally equipped to handle it. Meaning the chemical levels in their body are prepared for that) Their job requires them to be less physically stronger than that of the man. A mans job usually requires them to be physically stronger than the woman. Even if he has an office job he has the mental and physical capabilities and stamina and testostrone to bring the strong male out in himself when needed. I realize that these roles have been reversed in many instances and I also believe it has hurt society greatly because of they have attempted to change reality because of improper perception. (Notice I didn't say false? Because it is a true perception in that it is truly perceived as such but that doesn't make it proper, just like me thinking your a woman doesn't make you one, it may have you behave as one but it would require surgery to make it a reality.) But the roles of a man and woman have been reversed for reasons that prompted them to be reversed. (male not appreciating his help meet and causing her to be unfulfilled which in turn causes her to seek fulfillment from other means. This is stemmed from a male not knowing/taught his position and its responsibilites in the marriage and/or a female not knowing/taught/accepting her position and responsibilities in the marriage or vice versa) Either one of those being out of order or lacking will cause deficiencies in the person that must be met and will therefore seek means to be met. It is Gods plan for a marriage and it works beautifully when applied properly. He has it so the man does not think of himself but instead the wife, and he has it so the woman does not think of herself but instead the husband. It's not 50 50 but 100 100. Any other way results in incomplete fulfillment. It is my perception and belief and reality that the only way to become these sorts of people is to have God/JesusChrist create in us a new person, through His love toward us which in turn we project to others.
[qs]The rest comes down to differences in the development of muscles, (where there is some advantage from hormones - those mood drugs - for men).[qs] it doesn't take much advantage to be stronger. Even if he is a little stronger the difference is there and obvious usually. Sure a woman can go out into the field and become GI Jane and probably out do alot of men in alot of things. But dad cannot breastfeed the baby. And GI Jane may be able to become alot like a man in alot of things and maybe even better but she will require surgery and chemical body changes (if there is a surgery for that) as well as would the male in order to accomodate the procreation with this female turned male. Now I know there is no such surgery for that. The whole concept is utterly unnatural and causes for much problems on all human levels.
Only if you let men define what are "emotions" -- ever seen two guys go at a knock-down fight for no reason other than their emotions? The display behavior at sports games?
I didn't mean to imply that men do not have emotions. On the "balanced" level, a man is usually content to talk specifics. A woman on the other hand tends to discuss the details of the specifics. It is why the husband should value her opinion. For God has given her special eyes that easily see things their eyes are not always focused to see. It should bring them together in a helpful way. Unfortunately when the husband and wife do not understand this, the wife usually feels left out of life and so begins to overly assert often times unasked for opinions in order to feel important and if the husband does not accept her advice (often times laced with criticism) she takes it personally. If he is a good husband he is suddenly trapped. For if he gives in to her tactic he is not acting as a husband should (considering all options including the opinion of the wife and then doing what he sees as best) and if he doesn't give in to her tactic, she will make him pay in ways he could never have imagined. It is a cruel procedure but I don't know many women who are not guilty of it.
Do you let men get away with "it's natural for boys to fight" without also putting the blame on their hormones and emotions ... ?
no, I do not, for manliness has nothing in common with frivolous fighting. Not that there aren't times when it is manly to fight. For there is a time. It would be no different letting a woman get away with, "oh, I'm p.m.s.ing, thats why I'm so moody."
Sure there are chemicals that would have us bend to their will but that is what is so different about the human. We have the ability to choose what we will think and how we will feel and act accordingly. We have something that science cannot put in a test tube and measure or test. We can reason and rationalize and communicate thoughts in abstract ways. We do not have to say yes to 'pms' we can say, 'no' Discomfort does bring out certain qualities and behaviors in people, but to say we cannot help ourselves is just a lie we like to believe so that we don't have to stop. Men have the excuse of testostrone for unmanly behaviour, women have the excuse of harmones for their devious ploys, and parents have the excuse of ADD for their absent or bad parenting.
But you see this with everyone emotionally attached to a concept. The more that attachment is based on belief the more the emotional elements interfere with the logical ones. This is the heart of denial of evidence contrary to a belief, not that the evidence can't be true but that you can't believe it is true.
This is the one I couldn't wait to get to.
I believe that we are emotional creatures on different levels in different degrees. That is a fact. So, we have the problem of emotions on every level with every concept. To what degree is the question, are our emotions affecting our concept/perceptions/reality. For some it is very difficult to spank their child. I have conflicting emotions when I have to. My mental emotion passionately asserts that if I do not then I am creating a creature that will think it is god. My heart emotions think of the pain it will cause and how they may not understand and think that I do not love them. Although I have conflicting emotions that are both strong, I have to make a rational decision, with the good of the child in mind. What is more important? Creating a creature that thinks it is god (and an unruly god it would be!) or worrying that perhaps they will think that I do not love them? I can tell you what I choose! But then there are parents that do not understand those ideas or concepts because the reality of them has not invaded their lives (yet) but once you create the unruly god you will have a very hard time uncreating it!
Now your talking all out emotional war. The object of the game soon becomes, not what is best for the child (not that they ever knew what that was) but what is quickest for the parent. Parents who "don't know" what to do with a child will try and find ways to appease "it". If you don't know what the child needs then give it what it wants. Shut that thing up becomes the constant rule. Thus feeding the unruliness of the little god that is growing into a monster that controls two grown adults. The source of ADD. Ignorance in parenting. A perfect example of how what you don't know does indeed hurt you. And the child.
If there is evidence to disprove God then we should certainly look in to it. If there is evidence to disprove my supernatural experiences or whatever you want to call them, I am open to listening. For the truth does not change with concept, perception,evidence, or belief. The truth is the truth. All the rest may change in attaining the truth but the truth will always remain as it is. No matter how many ways you twist and turn the cube, if it is unmeddled with, it will remain a cube.
One reason I'll never understand men wanting polygamy ...
that is quite funny and easy to answer. The only situations where you find polygamy is where a religious belief is observed that meddles with the truth of a woman being seen and not heard, thus solving your insightful but nonexistant problem. LOL
thanks for your time again
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by RAZD, posted 10-30-2006 7:41 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by RAZD, posted 11-01-2006 8:44 PM warner has not replied
 Message 147 by zaron, posted 12-17-2006 10:37 AM warner has not replied

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