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Author Topic:   Perceptions of Reality
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 76 of 305 (359149)
10-26-2006 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by warner
10-25-2006 8:13 PM


philos+sophy
I have alot to think about and STILL think that there must be a way to unite the two if indeed they are both true.
this takes soooo long. Is there any way for us to chat this out? I've thought alot about what you've said and it makes alot of sense. I'm thinking I'm coming to the conclusion that science and the supernatural are like from different planets.
Well, I'd love to chat this out so that I could come to quicker conclusions than this.
There is a way to unite these concepts. It is called personal philosophy (philos = love\affinity + sophy = wisdom\knowledge), and it is a life-long process. We could "chat it out" today, and tomorrow you could have a life altering experience.
It is also the source of ethics and morality - science teaches you nothing of ethics really, and religion doesn't let you think but gives you a recipe book based on past experiences that will cause you to rethink some of your conclusions.
If you look back at Message 1 you will see the concentric circles of perceptions. I think of philosophy as the bridge between what we think we know and what we think we believe.
The path is the destination eh?
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by warner, posted 10-25-2006 8:13 PM warner has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by warner, posted 10-26-2006 8:36 PM RAZD has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 305 (359162)
10-26-2006 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by RAZD
10-26-2006 8:06 PM


Re: philos+sophy
Well, Radz,
I'm guessing your right here. Speaking of experiences. Lets pretend for one minute that i'm someone you trust and I relay an experience to you. Tell me what you think.
I have a dream about somebody. The dream tells me what they're up to and other things significant. Two days later I see that person and find that the dream was right.
Now, lets say this happens on a regular basis, say 2 times a month on average. Some of these people I havent seen in a while some in a long while.
But it always happens the same.
What about a particular vision that I had once.
I was lying down and we were driving at night. I was lying down in the back of the van thinking. Thinking about God and stuff and wondering about everything. Then in my mind I saw the road in front of us as it were night. I saw an animal on the side of the road. It was strange looking to me because it had a big body and a tiny head. It was looking across the road like it was scared and contemplating running across. That was it.
About 15 minutes later, I felt like I should tell my husband I guess because it stuck with me for some reason, oh yea, and I couldn't get the animal out of my mind because I couldn't figure out what it was. When I told him what I saw in my mind he said "Really!" and he asked me what exactly I saw and I explained it exactly as I saw it. He said, "About 5 minutes ago, I passed a deer on the side of the road. And I said, "No, but it didn't look like a deer. It didn't have antlers." He said, "No, this was a female deer, and it didn't have antlers." When he said female deer it hit me, that that was indeed the animal in my mind. Big body small head. He said it looked as though it might run across. Anyway, I know it seems like nothing but then again, how do you explain that?
My husband is in the ministry and we help alot of people. One guy in particular that we've helped for many years came back in our life and he was pretty bad on crack. My husband had a dream that he died. He didn't see how it happened just that he heard a shot and knew he had died. A week later he died. He was killed over drugs.
Stuff like this happens to us all the time. Two nights ago I had a dream about a friend of mine that we helped out a few months back I guess three. She wasn't really ready for help and so she left. Two nights ago I have a dream about her. There was something wrong with her and in the dream I said, "I need to get Blaine" (thats my husband first name Warner) 2 days later, she calls from a shelter. It's amazing to me. God always lets us know when people are about to come into our lives and what they need in some way. So that we can be prepared with how to deal with them it seems to me. These are the experiences, I have regularly. I don't know what your beliefs are and it really doesn't matter to me personally and I'm not even sure why I'm telling you this stuff. I guess because I feel like you have the right to know these things and I don't feel threatened by telling you. Anyway. I'm sure you may have thought I was a guy up till now, didn't mean to mislead you. For some reason, when they know I'm a female I don't seem to get as much respect. lol!
Dumb blonde stuff I guess. Not even a blonde! Anyway, thanks so much for your time and advice. I really enjoyed discussing these things rationally with someone. I will consider all that you have said and don't forget to give me your take on what I shared. If you want to.
If not, take care and see you perhaps in another forum

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2006 8:06 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2006 8:06 PM warner has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 78 of 305 (359169)
10-26-2006 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by warner
10-25-2006 8:13 PM


two replies for two different purposes
I'm coming to the conclusion that science and the supernatural are like from different planets.
... and maybe there are as many kinds of evolutionists as there are kinds of christians if you know what i mean...
I would think more. There are many christian "evolutionists" as well as those "evolutionists" that are of other faiths or agnostic or atheist, so that is a broader base to start from eh?
The reason I put "evolutionists" in quotes is because this group is defending a science under attack by a vocal minority rather than being committed to evolution above all else (other sciences, their personal faiths and beliefs, etcetera). I don't see myself as being more "evolutionist" than any other characteristic of my personality, knowledge and beliefs. I've published more poetry than scientific papers and have spent more time studying things other than biology, to say nothing of evolution.
Do you think there is bad blood between the two sides ...
I don't really think there are two sides so much as a spectrum, at least two dimensional, kind of like "planet science" on one axis and "planet belief" on the other. Everybody puts different sets of values on these concepts and it results in a broad scatter of points. Possible other axis could be planet politics or society, and others can come to mind. They're all part of the personal philosophy universe that defines how we each think of things.
What I see as the problem is not evolution versus fundamentalism, per se, but science versus denial and education versus ignorance.
If we define a fanatic as "someone who won't change their mind and can't change the subject", then it's the fanatic fundamentalists that are anti-science\knowledge, bent on denying evidence to maintain a personal interpretation at odds with the facts. Evolution is just the poster-boy of their pet peeve pantheon, but certainly it is not the only science being rejected (geology, archaeology, paleontology, physics, astronomy and chemistry obviously come in to play as well).
But when some people cause an unreasonable public ruckus trying to deny evidence, and then try to push that denial onto other people in public places, then some other folks just tend to get a little (justifiably, imh(ysa)o ) peeved.
Trying to understand whats really going on with this evolution/creation thing.
Think of the debate as trying to reach some concensus on what is acceptable for a general public process that is inclusive of all types and kinds and sorts of people, and what is better covered at a personal level.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by warner, posted 10-25-2006 8:13 PM warner has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by warner, posted 10-26-2006 9:35 PM RAZD has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 305 (359177)
10-26-2006 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by RAZD
10-26-2006 8:56 PM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
You see, I would think that the well I can speak personally, that it seems unscientific to exclude the possibility of the divine since they have no proof against it. We have no proof for it but yet no proof against it either. Even to admit that evolutions beginnings are "possibly divine". I think it's that that has us fundamentalists uptight. That evolutionists leave no room for our idea of how it all began. Even though they have no evidence disproving it. Meaning the beginning of the evolution process. And the idea that it was orchestrated by divine intelligence and not by natural selection.
Edited by warner, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2006 8:56 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2006 11:09 PM warner has not replied
 Message 81 by Nighttrain, posted 10-27-2006 3:19 AM warner has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 80 of 305 (359197)
10-26-2006 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by warner
10-26-2006 9:35 PM


divinity and denial and delusions
... that it seems unscientific to exclude the possibility of the divine since they have no proof against it.
But it isn't excluded, what IS excluded is concepts\beliefs\interpretations that are invalidated by evidence.
I think it's that that has us fundamentalists uptight. That evolutionists leave no room for our idea of how it all began.
The problem - for you - is that other religous beliefs do not have that problem. The Divine is not excluded for their beliefs --- and many of them are christians.
See Radiometric Dating for example
The problem is not divinity and not christianity, therefore it is a specific interpretation of one branch of one religion - a human interpretation (fallible eh?) that is at fault.
The earth is 4.55 billion years old, it orbits the sun, and in all that time there has not been one world wide flood.
That is the evidence of geology and physics and astronomy and chemistry, without needing biology or evolution, to invalidate the literal fundamentalist interpretation.
That does not mean that a jesus of nazareth did not walk the earth or that he was not divinely inspired.
It means that the earth is 4.55 billion years old, it orbits the sun and in all that time there has not been one world wide flood.
It can mean that god made the earth 4.55 billion years ago, set it in orbit around the sun, and moved mountains and valleys and oceans around in the development of the earth - depending on how 'involved' you think he\she\it needs to be.
The problem is not one of science and faith but one of delusion:
quote:
delusion -noun
1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.
And in pursuing perceptions of reality it is important to steer clear of delusions eh?
This is the line that science draws on the world as we know it: evidence exists; the more completely the concept of reality in question encompasses that evidence the more valid the concept becomes; the more evidence that is rejected or denied to maintain that concept the less valid it becomes.
Either we deal with the {world\universe} as {it is\god made it} or we live with delusions.
You've probably seen the joke where the drowning man rejects several attempts to save his life as he waits for god to rescue him.
The age of the earth, the orbit around the sun, the lack of a world wide flood, etcetera, can be considered a message.
The message about the orbit of the earth around a rather insignificant star in the far arm of a rather ordinary galaxy - that geocentricism was false - has been received and incorporated into virtually all christian interpretations that I am aware of (excluding the flat earth society and one creationist on another board), even the more extreme fundamentalist christian ones.
The message about the age of the earth is no less clear than the one about the orbit (see Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III) for SOME of this evidence, evidence not creationist yet has been able to dent to say nothing of refuting) ...
As is the one about no world wide flood.
Why is it okay to orbit the sun?
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by warner, posted 10-26-2006 9:35 PM warner has not replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 81 of 305 (359215)
10-27-2006 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by warner
10-26-2006 9:35 PM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
And the idea that it was orchestrated by divine intelligence and not by natural selection.
In a long and rather thorough search on this earth, I have found no evidence of divinity. Care to show me some?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by warner, posted 10-26-2006 9:35 PM warner has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by warner, posted 10-27-2006 11:52 AM Nighttrain has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 305 (359309)
10-27-2006 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Nighttrain
10-27-2006 3:19 AM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
It has come to my understanding that whatever evidence that "I" have for my beliefs will not suffice as evidence for yours. That I cannot help.
I wish I could, for it is like getting a secret insight to something you are not allowed specifically because you are not in the right place to see/get a view of it and hear/feel/experience the evidence of it.
If I burned you with fire, could you say that the scar is evidence that you were burned?
If you fall down and break your leg, would you say that the crack in the bone that shows up on the x ray is evidencs that it is indeed cracked.
The divine my friend, I have experienced and continue to experience. One can philosophically explain the divine but then that is none of your concern as a sceintist now is it.
Howbeit you use philosophy for many a thing that requires philosophy to be used and that is as close as you will probably get to the divine unfortunately. Unless you have a change of mind. Perhaps a miracle of some sort to cause you to reckon that science may be right in what it knows but that it does "not" know everything. Some things I see that it can never know since the world of the divine is not of the same material as we are accustomed to studying. We apply natural laws in our discoveries and rightfully so. But with the supernatural, we deal with different kind of laws.
Its like that leg break
before we had x rays we could only feel the pain of the broken leg.
As technology improved we developed something that allowed us to see the evidence with our sight not just our feeling of that break.
Because we couldn't see it before the x ray did not make it any less broken.
The same is true I believe with the supernatural.
Alot of it is felt physically as with a miraculous healing.
In that case you do have physical evidence of something that was there that shouldn't have gone away but it has with no scientific explanation.
You do not have to believe it until maybe it happens to you or a close loved one.
Then at least you will have to reckon with it.
You will find that you cannot scientifically explain it which makes it "super" natural.
I have had many experiences that are miraculous. I have tried to scientifically explain them away. Maybe you could help me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Nighttrain, posted 10-27-2006 3:19 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 10-27-2006 12:06 PM warner has not replied
 Message 84 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2006 1:54 AM warner has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 305 (359310)
10-27-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by warner
10-27-2006 11:52 AM


On Super natural?
You do not have to believe it until maybe it happens to you or a close loved one.
Then at least you will have to reckon with it.
You will find that you cannot scientifically explain it which makes it "super" natural.
It seems that it could also just be unexplained.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by warner, posted 10-27-2006 11:52 AM warner has not replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 84 of 305 (359437)
10-28-2006 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by warner
10-27-2006 11:52 AM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
I`m not querying on my behalf, but for believers who went screaming in agony to their deaths while calling on the divine. So you have the gift and all the others were misguided? Seems the least a God could do is let you pass on the secret to the favoured.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by warner, posted 10-27-2006 11:52 AM warner has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by warner, posted 10-28-2006 5:40 PM Nighttrain has replied

warner
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 305 (359534)
10-28-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Nighttrain
10-28-2006 1:54 AM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
I`m not querying on my behalf, but for believers who went screaming in agony to their deaths while calling on the divine. So you have the gift and all the others were misguided? Seems the least a God could do is let you pass on the secret to the favoured.
as Jesus would have told his accusers "you do err because you do not know the scriptures nor the power of God"
You'll have to put up with Bible quotes since you are inquiring about the Divine. And those who call out to the Divine should not mind it when you pass it to them.
So let me ask you a question. The answer to my question will be the answer for yours to me.
How is it that you know so much about science and I don't?
Do you possess some secret that I cannot get to???
You don't understand why God does what He does, therefore He must be unjust. Like a spoiled child that doesn't understand why mommy or daddy doesn't let them play in the street. Or why after numerous times being told what to do, mommy or daddy set boundaries and a discipline if you cross them.
If you can comprehend it in the natural laws (touch the fire you get burned) then it's the same way with God's laws. They were set in advance as well as the consequences.
Since we have the gift of choice to do with as we please then, isn't it up to us to make informed decisions?
Ignorance kills. You can smoke cigarettes and not know they are harmful but your ignorance will not save you from killing yourself. You will not be punished for sin because sin is to know to do right and to not do it, but you will still reap what is sown in the natural laws.
I'm not violating a spiritual law if I plant corn at the wrong season. But I will not have a good crop of corn nevertheless because I violated a natural law.
Its cause and effect. For every law there is a consequence, whether unto keeping it or breaking it. You throw the ball up it comes down, if you move out of the way you will not be hit. There is the law and its consequences if you follow it and consequences if you do not.
If you can thus grasp God's laws in the same fashion you would be a whole lot comfortable about the matter. But as it stands you do not have a proper perspective and therefore it "seems" as though you have an unfair and mean God.
If a child did not understand the law of gravity and they threw the ball up and it came down upon their head and it hurt them and they turned to you in tears and said, "Why did you let that happen!" You would probably laugh a little and explain the law of gravity. You would tell them, that you did not cause that to happen, that it happens whether or not you want it to. Therefore if you do not want to get hit in the head with the ball, do not stand under it when you throw it up into the air. You would be sorry that they got hurt and you would do your best to prevent them from doing it again like explaining how it works and reminding of them how it hurts when you do it wrong.
The same is true with God and the spiritual laws. Unfortunately, the spiritual laws and their consequences are often times not felt immediately. Like hand in fire burns instantly. Often times it is more of a long term effect. Slow death. Like crack cocaine. It feels so good at first, you would have a hard time telling the person doing crack that they are killing themselves.
Or you have a hard time convincing your children to be concerned with rotting teeth from candy when all they know is the pleasure of the candy. Ten years later however you will not have to say a thing because they are finding out the hard way due to their choice of listening to the pleasure instead of the law.
The same is true for every sin. It has its consequences. Sometimes the consequences are seen in the children. This may seem unfair, and it is, that is why God despises us to disobey, because He knows it brings death. The same reason you despise when your children disobey. Its not that you despise the children, its that you despise that they have to hurt and suffer and there is nothing you can do about it but try your best to get them to see the error of their way. Have you ever tried to tell a friend over and over that a particular act would simply lead to their misery and they refused to listen to you. You could get on your knees and beg them and they still did not listen. What more can you do? You do what God does after makeing more numerous efforts than you or I ever would to save them, you would allow them to do it their way. Do you like to do that? No, because it hurts you to see them get hurt, but alas, short of holding their hand to the fire, you can do nothing else.
Choice is a beautiful thing, until you use those choices to violate laws that were meant to be obeyed.
You have a car to get yourself from place to place. But if you begin to use that car to violate laws and cause yourself or others pain, then you have a problem. Whether you know it or not does not change that fact.
And who are you to be angry at God?
Have you seen all the attempts that He has made before he resorts to "allowing them their choice?" Have you even seen all the times He saved them from the pain in hopes to talk sense into them before they get hurt? Only to have them think they are doing something right and that is why they were spared when in actuallity they are being given chance after chance?
You slander God so freely and yet He does not strike you down. Not yet. And when you do get struck down, it will not be by Him, it will be by your choice, your way of saying, not your will be done, but mine. You will make yourself god and you will break a law when you do that and you will feel the consequences of such a broken law just like everybody else.
You say, well if there is a God then why is He unfair?
You look at one suffering and you shake your fist at God. Why do you lt this one suffer and spare that one? You rage.
But all you see is the end of the story. You do not see the beginning the middle and the end. Even if you did you do not see the heart, or the spiritual. That is where God is concerned for it is where sin has its seed. God looks at things that you cannot see with your eyes. It is not for you to see. But that does not mean He cannot give you eyes to see. And when you do see, you will be like the scientist with the microscope. You will see the invisible things that are not apparent to the naked eye. You will see the why behind the what.
Isa 29:14 So once again I will do things that shock and amaze them, and I will destroy the wisdom of those who claim to know and understand."
Pro 28:5 Criminals don't know what justice means, but all who respect the LORD understand it completely.
Pro 9:10 Respect and obey the LORD! This is the beginning of wisdom. To have understanding, you must know the Holy God.
Then you will put your hand over your mouth and realize you have committed a grave sin against a very loving God that you do not know.
And yet, He will offer you the same salvation if you should choose. Despite all your false accusations. He knows that you are at a disadvantage because their is an enemy of God that schemes to lead you astray and slander the most High God, so that seeing, you will not see, and hearing you will not hear.
His mercy is not seen because how do you know what you have been spared if you did not fall into it?
You never know the mercy of God because you look and say all is well without Him. And even still He has commanded your angel to look after you in all your goings, to be available if ever you should choose Him. And even when you are deciding to choose he is there helping you and speaking to you. You are not accustomed to His voice therefore you do not recognize it. And the enemy is also speaking to you and those thoughts are at odds with God's will. If you believe the thoughts and ideas of the enemy then you will soon not even listen to God's voice.
You break the rules, you suffer the consequences.
You think that is unfair? Then you just as well think gravity is unfair. Because the spiritual laws whether you believe it or not are just like the natural in principal. The consequences are set into place at the time the law is created. It is beyond Gods plan to break that law, BUT, since He is God, He does have the ability to exercise the supernatural in CERTAIN circumstances. You would have to know the laws well to understand that. Not many people do.
An example of this would be:
Two people suffer the same disease. One is an elderly man the other a born again christian.
The born again christian has known God for 5 years and the elderly man has just come to know Him.
The born again christian is not healed but the elderly man is.
Some look and do not understand. Though the situations look the same they are very different. The details surrounding the sickness are very different.
Its like a 2 year old and a 12 year old. Both commit the same crime. You might laugh and say a 2 year old cannot commit a crime or break a rule. You would be right. The 12 year old can however. So, there are different sets of rules for different levels or ages. Different consequences as well. The further we go with God the more we learn, the more we learn, the more we are accountable to.
If you play around after knowing the truth then it is more difficult to get healed, its like knowingly playing with danger. Sin is not something to toy with. The more you toy with it the harder it is to overcome. It's like a tree that roots into the soul of man. Once it is rooted in good, it requires a great deal of prayer and fasting and soul seeking to overcome. But it can be done and has been done. That is why you cannot judge one persons healing over another. Most sicknesses are a reaping of what was sown. The sickness is a sign that some law has been compromised whether physical or spiritual. We are bound by both.
So to think that God plays favorites is a grave error.
That is if you mean it in the sense that He likes one over another for no good reason.
The reason some get things that others do not has its laws in that too as I demonstrated above. Then there are the times when what seems to you the outsider as cruel injustice in fact is not.
To spare somebody from death is not always mercy.
Especially if God were to be taking them back to Himself. God can see what kind of life that person or child is going to have to endure we cannot. If He thinks it would be better for them to be removed all together, then He does it.
Think of it this way. When you have a sick child that has to take really nasty medicine and they scream and cry to not take it, who would seem to be the saviour? Mommy might say, "O.k. never mind don't make her take that horrible stuff" and daddy might say "you must take the yucky medicine if you want to be better"
If you ask the ignorant child who has no understanding, they would think mommy is nice and daddy is mean.
The same is true on a Godly level. If you seek to disprove God and make Him out to be a meanie, then you will probably find many scriptures to do so. But if you seek to understand Him you will be able to find "all" the pieces to the puzzle and put them together and see an entire picture instead of grabbing at a few and complaining that none of it makes sense. Of cours it wouldn't just like if I had half of any story it would not come out right because it is not complete.
To give you a better picture from the Word of God what indeed God has done for us please read the following. Concerning sin and death there is very much to be learned. This is who God is and what He has done for us.
Heb 13:20 God gives peace, and he raised our Lord Jesus Christ from death. Now Jesus is like a Great Shepherd whose blood was used to make God's eternal agreement with his flock.
Heb 11:31 Rahab had been a prostitute, but she had faith and welcomed the spies. So she wasn't killed with the people who disobeyed.
Heb 11:32 What else can I say? There isn't enough time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets.
Heb 11:33 Their faith helped them conquer kingdoms, and because they did right, God made promises to them. They closed the jaws of lions
Heb 11:34 and put out raging fires and escaped from the swords of their enemies. Although they were weak, they were given the strength and power to chase foreign armies away.
Heb 11:35 Some women received their loved ones back from death. Many of these people were tortured, but they refused to be released. They were sure that they would get a better reward when the dead are raised to life.
Heb 11:36 Others were made fun of and beaten with whips, and some were chained in jail.
Heb 11:37 Still others were stoned to death or sawed in two or killed with swords. Some had nothing but sheep skins or goat skins to wear. They were poor, mistreated, and tortured.
Heb 11:38 The world did not deserve these good people, who had to wander in deserts and on mountains and had to live in caves and holes in the ground.
Heb 11:39 All of them pleased God because of their faith! But still they died without being given what had been promised.
Heb 11:40 This was because God had something better in store for us. And he did not want them to reach the goal of their faith without us.
(it seems as though God is cruel to not give them their reward. But is He? He is a Father of many and did not want to leave the rest of us without an opportunity. He allowed them to be a sacrifice for a "greater good". To save more.)
Heb 9:14 But Christ was sinless, and he offered himself as an eternal and spiritual sacrifice to God. That's why his blood is much more powerful and makes our consciences clear. Now we can serve the living God and no longer do things that lead to death.
Heb 2:14 We are people of flesh and blood. That is why Jesus became one of us. He died to destroy the devil, who had power over death.
Rom 5:6 Christ died for us at a time when we were helpless and sinful.
Rom 5:7 No one is really willing to die for an honest person, though someone might be willing to die for a truly good person.
Rom 5:8 But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful.
Rom 5:9 But there is more! Now that God has accepted us because Christ sacrificed his life's blood, we will also be kept safe from God's anger.
Rom 5:10 Even when we were God's enemies, he made peace with us, because his Son died for us.
Rom 5:11 And in addition to everything else, we are happy because God sent our Lord Jesus Christ to make peace with us.
Rom 5:12 Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned, and so everyone must die.
Rom 5:13 Sin was in the world before the Law came. But no record of sin was kept, because there was no Law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death still had power over all who lived from the time of Adam to the time of Moses. This happened, though not everyone disobeyed a direct command from God, as Adam did. In some ways Adam is like Christ who came later.
Rom 5:15 But the gift that God was kind enough to give was very different from Adam's sin. That one sin brought death to many others. Yet in an even greater way, Jesus Christ alone brought God's gift of kindness to many people.
Rom 5:16 There is a lot of difference between Adam's sin and God's gift. That one sin led to punishment. But God's gift made it possible for us to be acceptable to him, even though we have sinned many times.
Rom 5:17 Death ruled like a king because Adam had sinned. But that cannot compare with what Jesus Christ has done. God has been so kind to us, and he has accepted us because of Jesus. And so we will live and rule like kings.
Rom 5:18 Everyone was going to be punished because Adam sinned. But because of the good thing that Christ has done, God accepts us and gives us the gift of life.
Rom 5:19 Adam disobeyed God and caused many others to be sinners. But Jesus obeyed him and will make many people acceptable to God.
Rom 5:20 The Law came, so that the full power of sin could be seen. Yet where sin was powerful, God's kindness was even more powerful.
Rom 5:21 Sin ruled by means of death. But God's kindness now rules, and God has accepted us because of Jesus Christ our Lord. This means that we will have eternal life.
1Co 15:22 Adam brought death to all of us, and Christ will bring life to all of us.
Only He can do that under the "new" law that He has put into place that allows us to have the consequence of our sin paid for by His own blood.
So therefore you should have learned that though some things seem unjust does not mean that they are.
And that you should know all the details before slandering somebody, especially God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2006 1:54 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2006 11:59 PM warner has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3984 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 86 of 305 (359572)
10-28-2006 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by warner
10-28-2006 5:40 PM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
And that you should know all the details before slandering somebody, especially God.
And you should know the real Scriptures before quoting them. Care to show me the originals? Being on first-name terms should give you an inside edge to what really was written. Show us the beginning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by warner, posted 10-28-2006 5:40 PM warner has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-29-2006 12:41 AM Nighttrain has not replied
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 Message 98 by RAZD, posted 10-29-2006 7:43 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 305 (359578)
10-29-2006 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Nighttrain
10-28-2006 11:59 PM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
And you should know the real Scriptures before quoting them. Care to show me the originals? Being on first-name terms should give you an inside edge to what really was written. Show us the beginning.
If you are suggesting that the Scriptures we have now are not actually the 'real' scriptures, then the burden of proof remains with the one making the assertion-- in which case, I think we'd all like to know how this esoteric knowledge has come into your possession.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Nighttrain, posted 10-28-2006 11:59 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ReverendDG, posted 10-29-2006 1:47 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 89 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-29-2006 1:39 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 90 by jar, posted 10-29-2006 10:14 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4100 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 88 of 305 (359583)
10-29-2006 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Hyroglyphx
10-29-2006 12:41 AM


Re: two replies for two different purposes
If you are suggesting that the Scriptures we have now are not actually the 'real' scriptures, then the burden of proof remains with the one making the assertion-- in which case, I think we'd all like to know how this esoteric knowledge has come into your possession.
how is it esoteric? this is not esoteric if you know anything about how historians do things
the answer for you is, that we have compared different versions of the bible texts and found they are not the same, later ones have things inserted, things removed, things reworded
they have carbon-dated the materals of many older bibles i believe as well, nothing has been found from first to second century that are completely like the ones we have now

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-29-2006 12:41 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-29-2006 10:30 AM ReverendDG has not replied
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3588 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 89 of 305 (359584)
10-29-2006 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Hyroglyphx
10-29-2006 12:41 AM


Man O Man O Manuscripts!
If you are suggesting that the Scriptures we have now are not actually the 'real' scriptures, then the burden of proof remains with the one making the assertion-- in which case, I think we'd all like to know how this esoteric knowledge has come into your possession.
I understood the statement, NJ, to be referring to the fact that Judaism and Christianity lack original documents or even first-generation copies for any book of the Bible as defined in anyone's canon.
Variants exist, too. Take the oldest extant copies we now have of a book like Isaiah. The oldest copies in this case are the Qumran scrolls circa first-century BCE/CE. These scrolls differ at many points from the later Masoretic text already standard as a source of translations. Multiple copies of Isaiah were discovered at Qumran and they do not agree at every point with each other, either.
You also have sources like the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures made in the most recent years BCE and quoted by the first Christians. This translation, along with others from ancient times, is based on Hebrew originals earlier than those we now have. We thus have a window on how some earlier versions of the documents read. Some remarkable divergence exists betweeen the translatoins and any docments we now have. But ancient translations do agree with each other on some of these same points. This indicates that this does reflect content in the original documents rather than idiosyncracies of translation.
There's nothing 'esoteric' about taking this reality into account. Much of the information is supplied in the translators' forewards and notes in any reputable translation (NRSV, JPS, New Jerusalem Bible, NIV, etc). Further information may be found in the scholars' commentaries provided in standard academic study Bibles (Oxford UK, HarperCollins USA, JPS Torah Commentary).
The point being made is that one cannot naively equate the Scriptures one quotes with the original content penned by the original authors. The original content is not content you have.
For most literary purposes the documents we possess may be taken as a credible enough transmission of ancient ideas to allow us to proceed on a conditional basis. We don't possess the original manuscripts of the The Iliad, either, or the Tao Te Ching. Yet the versions of these books we have today clearly possess content of ancient origin and we may study them on that basis. At the same time, the search for more ancient sources for all these books continues.
Fundamentalists up the ante when they claim word-for-word inerrancy in an ancient text. Now even the smallest variants in wording between ancient sources raise serious questions about whether 'God's words' are being reliably preserved.
The reality of variant texts, along with the absence of original manuscripts, challenges the entire premise of inerrancy.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Lack of inerrancy in original manuscript.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-29-2006 12:41 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-29-2006 11:01 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 305 (359630)
10-29-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Hyroglyphx
10-29-2006 12:41 AM


what is scripture?
If you are suggesting that the Scriptures we have now are not actually the 'real' scriptures, then the burden of proof remains with the one making the assertion-- in which case, I think we'd all like to know how this esoteric knowledge has come into your possession.
We do not know what the term "Scriptures" refers to. We do know that it is not the Bible, since the Bible (actually Bibles since there is no one universal Canon) did not come into existence until long after the references to scripture were written.
It is likely that the term refers to a broad base of texts that would include books later included in the Bible and various Canon, but also many other texts, some like Enoch that we know about as well as many still unknown.
In addition, as has been pointed out to you, we do not have a single example of the original text of any of the material that was later codified into the Bible.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-29-2006 12:41 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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