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Author Topic:   Near-death experiences and consciousness
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 66 of 145 (264365)
11-30-2005 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by randman
11-30-2005 1:16 AM


Re: here's a problem
We have a peer-reviewed study in a prestigious scientific journal claiming otherwise,
The article appears to mainly be reporting statistics on the frequency of occurence and reported effects. These are interesting, because such data had not been previously gathered. But they don't provide any evidence that ndes are caused by other than neural activity.
There is one anecdotal report of an OBE. Such anecdotal reports are poor evidence.
The evidence strongly suggests that NDEs can occur when the brain is not active because there are observed examples of this occuring.
I don't see any basis for that conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:16 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:48 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 68 of 145 (264369)
11-30-2005 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by randman
11-30-2005 1:48 AM


Re: here's a problem
Well, obviously the author of the study feels otherwise, and I do as well.
I retyped the listed findings in that paper
quote:
Findings 62 patients (18%) reported NDE, of whom 41 (12%) described a core experience. Occurrence of the experience was not associated with duration of cardiac arrest or unconsciousness, medication, or fear of death before cardiac arrest. Frequency of NDE was affected by how we defined NDE, the prospective nature of the research in older cardiac patients, age, surviving cardiac arrest in older cardiac patients, age, survivig cardiac arrest in first myocardial infarction, more than one cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) during stay in hospital, previouse NDE, and memory problems after prolonged CPR. Depth of the experience was affected by sex, surviving CPR outside hostpital, and fear before cardiac arrest. Significanatly more patients who had an NDE, especially a deep experience, died within 30 days of CPR (p<0.0001). The process of transformation after NDE took several years, and differed from those of patients who survived cardiac arrest without NDE.
I don't see anything in those findings that would indicate the NDE occurs when the brain is not active.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:48 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:28 AM nwr has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 80 of 145 (264469)
11-30-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by randman
11-30-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Filling in
Wonder why the author then is saying the opposite? Is he lying, part of the creationist/God-believer/ID-wedge conspiracy?
Anyone care to assess why the author claims NEDs occur when the brain is not functioning?
Which author are we talking about here? Is it the reporter who wrote the ODE article, or is it the physician who wrote the lancet article?
I don't see that claim in the lancet article.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:16 PM randman has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 96 of 145 (264527)
11-30-2005 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
11-30-2005 3:16 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Again, the existance or non-existance of a soul has nothing to do with this thread.
LOL
I thought it was clear in the OP, that randman thought he could prove the existence of a spiritual soul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 3:16 PM jar has not replied

  
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