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Author Topic:   Near-death experiences and consciousness
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3071 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 91 of 145 (264516)
11-30-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
11-30-2005 3:16 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Do you believe a person's consciousness or a form of consciousness can exist without the brain then?

Same question. Soul equals permanent consciousness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 3:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2005 3:27 PM randman has not yet responded
 Message 95 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 3:32 PM randman has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 145 (264517)
11-30-2005 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by randman
11-30-2005 1:16 PM


Re: Filling in
Anyone care to assess why the author claims NEDs occur when the brain is not functioning?

Sure. He's driven by an agenda to establish a pseudo-scientific basis for the existence of the soul. It's clear from his paper, and clear from his comments. Otherwise he wouldn't be making these statements in the absence of any evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:16 PM randman has not yet responded

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2266 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 93 of 145 (264519)
11-30-2005 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by randman
11-30-2005 2:29 PM


Pam Reynolds NDE
He addresses that specifically and generally in his references to medical causes and in the other article written by him I quoted from.

Well why not direct us to the specific points he makes to address it then, rather than making me read both articles again right the way through.

Moreover, one of the accounts he relies on deals with a woman who had the blood drained from here brain, operated on at very cold temperatures, with her eyes taped shut and yet she a very accurate description of details of the operation.

I hope you will forgive the rather unorthodox approach to the remainder of this reply. Given that this refernce is to a book to which I don't have ready access it is hard to tell exactly what that particualr case shows.

I have however tracked down an old JREF thread which has a sizable extract from the relevant chapter of the book. To get to the relevant section find 'page 37' and you will have the right post. This post is from a memeber of the board who has been convinced that a number of the claims about Pam Reynolds NDE have been confused in retelling, and that confusion is echoed in the section you quote.

If you read the account of the operation, from the book Van Lommel referenced, you will see that in fact all of the details that might be properly verified, and are attested to on any number of pro NDE websites, occurred prior to the chilling and draining of the blood. There are veridical details associated with the OBE but not with the actual period of flat EEG.

If you are aware of particulars which contradict this interpretation I would be glad to hear them.

TTFN,

WK

*edited to correct link and page number*

This message has been edited by Wounded King, 01-Dec-2005 10:50 AM

This message has been edited by Wounded King, 01-Dec-2005 10:51 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 2:29 PM randman has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 145 (264520)
11-30-2005 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by randman
11-30-2005 3:20 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Do you believe a person's consciousness or a form of consciousness can exist without the brain then?

If it can exist without the brain; remain in the physical world and make observations, hear sounds, see things, etc - why do we need brains at all? Why not have an empty skull? Maybe with a little hatch on the back to store things?

What do our brains do if not thinking and remembering? And if that's not what they do, then why do drugs work?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 3:20 PM randman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by cavediver, posted 11-30-2005 3:46 PM crashfrog has responded
 Message 102 by nator, posted 11-30-2005 9:41 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30996
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 95 of 145 (264521)
11-30-2005 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by randman
11-30-2005 3:20 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Again, that has nothing to do with this thread.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 3:20 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 4:16 PM jar has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 96 of 145 (264527)
11-30-2005 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
11-30-2005 3:16 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Again, the existance or non-existance of a soul has nothing to do with this thread.

LOL

I thought it was clear in the OP, that randman thought he could prove the existence of a spiritual soul.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 3:16 PM jar has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 97 of 145 (264529)
11-30-2005 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by crashfrog
11-30-2005 3:27 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Why not have an empty skull? Maybe with a little hatch on the back to store things?

Unfair. No coffee warning. Now have to clean the monitor... and my beard.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2005 3:27 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2005 3:52 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 145 (264531)
11-30-2005 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by cavediver
11-30-2005 3:46 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Sorry, friend. For future reference: see the big green frog over there on the left? That's your warning. Try not to ingest beverages until after you've finished reading.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by cavediver, posted 11-30-2005 3:46 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3071 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 99 of 145 (264537)
11-30-2005 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
11-30-2005 3:32 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Afraid to answer the question?

Not to be petty, but it really has everything to do with the thread.

This message has been edited by randman, 11-30-2005 04:17 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 3:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 4:33 PM randman has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30996
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 100 of 145 (264543)
11-30-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by randman
11-30-2005 4:16 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Nonsense.

Yet more misdirection.

This is not about what I might believe but rather what the evidence as laid out in the Lancet article shows. And so far you seem to dance all around that instead of responding to the issue.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 4:16 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 10:19 PM jar has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 101 of 145 (264544)
11-30-2005 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by randman
11-30-2005 1:16 AM


Re: here's a problem
quote:
the brain also has a high degree of activity while it's running out of oxygen -- and THOSE effects seem to explain nde's.

How? We have a peer-reviewed study in a prestigious scientific journal claiming otherwise

peer review and publication of a study in a scientific journal doesn't mean all of the author's opinions and beliefs are facts.

and we have your statement with no data given to back it up.

or, if you had read the study you were talking about:

quote:
And yet, neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy,23 with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia),24 and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots,25 or as in hyperventilation followed by valsalva manoeuvre.4 Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor,26 and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned,27 as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD,28 psilocarpine, and mescaline.21


4 Lempert T, Bauer M, Schmidt D. Syncope and near-death experience. Lancet 1994; 344: 829-30. [PubMed]
21 Schröter-Kunhardt M. Nah--Todeserfahrungen aus psychiatrisch-neurologischer Sicht. In: Knoblaub H, Soeffner HG, eds. Todesnähe: interdisziplinäre Zugänge zu einem außergewöhnlichen Phänomen. Konstanz: Universitätsverlag Konstanz, 1999: 65-99.
23 Penfield W. The excitable cortex in conscious man. Liverpool: Liverpool University Press, 1958.
24 Meduna LT. Carbon dioxide therapy: a neuropsychological treatment of nervous disorders. Springfield: Charles C Thomas, 1950.
25 Whinnery JE, Whinnery AM. Acceleration-induced loss of consciousness. Arch Neurol 1990; 47: 764-76. [PubMed]
26 Jansen K. Neuroscience, ketamine and the near-death experience: the role of glutamate and the NMDA-receptor. In: Bailey LW, Yates J, eds. The near-death experience: a reader. New York and London: Routledge, 1996: 265-82
27 Greyson B. Biological aspects of near-death experiences. Perspect Biol Med 1998; 42: 14-32. [PubMed]
28 Grof S, Halifax J. The human encounter with death. New York: Dutton, 1977.


anyways, not to be accused of quotemining, the article is say that those explanations do not fully explain the phenominon. the above is immediately followed by:

quote:
These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past. These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE.

no reference given, but i'll assume for the benefit of the doubt it's talked about in one of the above references.

quote:
Further, transformational processes with changing life-insight and disappearance of fear of death are rarely reported after induced experiences.

and that's simply a result of the interpretation of the event by the cardiac arrect victim. if you black out while in a g-force simulator, you're not going to think you died and went to heaven, and if you have a hallucination while on lsd, you're more likely to rationalize it as such. but if you're on the operating table, and you die, you're less likely to think it was a product of your own biology. the fact that it means something to someone doesn't make it real, or an external phenominon.

the article is arguing, basically, that biology alone is not enough. which is a "duh" statement. if we're counting after effects like the ones above, we're obvious including psychology. it's a call for explanation, not an explanation.

what i am saying is that i consider the physiological and biological causes, when added to the psychological ones, to be enough, because the lack of an external meaning is contextual, and the fragmentation of memories is not a large enough difference. it's the same process, with similar results -- no suprises here.

but i do agree with one point in the article: it should be studied more.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 1:16 AM randman has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 341 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 102 of 145 (264591)
11-30-2005 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by crashfrog
11-30-2005 3:27 PM


Re: what misdirection?
quote:
why do we need brains at all? Why not have an empty skull? Maybe with a little hatch on the back to store things?

ROTFLMAO!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 11-30-2005 3:27 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3071 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 103 of 145 (264605)
11-30-2005 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by jar
11-30-2005 4:33 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Actually, it's just not about the Lancet article. That's just one article. It's about the idea. The fact you reject the idea so staunchly, imo, is surprising if you really believe in the existence of the soul, or consciousness independent of the body.

It's telling, imo, that you don't want to settle the issue by answering a simple question.

But what is really odd is that you seem to deny that the doctor is even making these claims. At least WK here, even though he disagrees with the doctor, is willing to admit Van Pommel makes the claim of consciousness functioning while the brain is not.

Thus far, you have not even been willing to acknowledge that fact, and it is an uncontestable fact that this is what the doctor claims.

Very odd on your part, unless, well...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 4:33 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 10:32 PM randman has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30996
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 104 of 145 (264608)
11-30-2005 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by randman
11-30-2005 10:19 PM


Re: what misdirection?
Still trying to change the subject are you?

Nope, back to the topic. The Lancet article does not support your assertions.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 10:19 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by randman, posted 11-30-2005 10:47 PM jar has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3071 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 105 of 145 (264611)
11-30-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by jar
11-30-2005 10:32 PM


Re: what misdirection?
So far, you've been proven wrong, jar. You claimed the Lancet article did not make the claim of consciousness occuring without brain activity, but it does make that claim.

Do you admit that or not?

Also, I think it's clear why you are reluctant to admit whether you believe the soul exists.

This message has been edited by randman, 11-30-2005 10:47 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 10:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 11-30-2005 10:58 PM randman has responded

  
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