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Author Topic:   Best evidence for Creation
onifre
Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 92 of 176 (477476)
08-03-2008 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ICANT
08-01-2008 8:37 PM


Re: No evidence so far.
ICANT,
You may want to continue reading your Hawkings paper a bit more than just the first line.
Heres a quote from it
quote:
At a singularity, all the laws of physics would have broken down. This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before, because the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang.
If the laws of physics break down, then there is no way of knowing for sure when or how a beginning occured.
Here he further explains what is meant,
quote:
Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang.
So its not that 'time began at the Big Bang', what he is saying is that we might as well say that time began at the Big Bang since events prior have no observable consequence.
Here again he repets that,
quote:
Although the laws of science seemed to predict the universe had a beginning, they also seemed to predict that they could not determine how the universe would have begun.
UNDETERMINED BEGINNING...I think thats a pretty clear statement.
However, I would say that String Theory may be closing this gap.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ICANT, posted 08-01-2008 8:37 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2008 3:09 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 103 of 176 (477489)
08-03-2008 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ICANT
08-03-2008 3:09 PM


Re: No evidence so far.
quote:
Although the laws of science seemed to predict the universe had a beginning, they also seemed to predict that they could not determine how the universe would have begun.
ICANT reply,
seemed to predict the universe had a beginning.
I think you are jumping the gun, it seems to predict that the beginniing, if there was one, is currently undetermined.
Also note that the Laws of science breakdown at the singularity making the 'beginning' currently unknowable. Therefore to boldly state that there is a beginning is a leap of faith.
Here Son Goku gives the earliest temperature we know.
...your link wasn't to Son Goku's explanation.
But i'll take your word that 1,160,400,000,000,000 degrees, is the actual number.
So what, Son Goku is refering to the Universe at a particular time after T=O, how is that a problem for String or M-theory?
If it was that hot and that dense how do you trace anything past that point?
I don't see how a particular temperature creates a problem for String theory. Could you explain...

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2008 3:09 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2008 9:49 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 110 of 176 (477503)
08-03-2008 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ICANT
08-03-2008 9:49 PM


Re: No evidence so far.
GR breaks down nothing is known at that point.
Exactly, so why would you presume it has an origin?
Why would you presume it has a creator?
Why would you presume to know who the creator is?

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2008 9:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2008 10:38 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 147 of 176 (481428)
09-10-2008 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Open MInd
09-10-2008 12:50 AM


Re: Proof of Creation
Open Mind writes:
The idea of simple is that it does not have to be created. By definition it is the simplest thing in existence and it requires no creating.
I don't think you get to evade it that easily. That may be your opinion on the matter but, it certainly isn't evidence for simple requiring no creator. If God created our universe, then he did so by creating those simple forces that were present at the moment of the BB, and therefore God would also be responsable for creating something simple.
If God is the creator, He created the most complex, AND the most simple, therefore even the most simplest of things that exist in our universe would require a creator. If God is, as you say simple, He too requires a creator that created the simple God.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Open MInd, posted 09-10-2008 12:50 AM Open MInd has not replied

  
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