Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Discussion of John MacKay's Views
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 77 (406332)
06-19-2007 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Eilidh
06-19-2007 4:15 AM


Re: Marvellous!
Well, it appears that in addition to making his living by selling False information to gullible Christians, John Mackay is fully aware that he can only get away with his con in an environment where he can play emotions and limit the scope or duration of the material presented.
That is not surprising. Professional Biblical Creationists always try to minimize the risk of exposure and a slow, extended debate where emotion is limited (as a written debate over the internet must be), and where there is adequate time to research their assertions and present the facts that refute their position, is a place they know will be their downfall.
John Mackay is simply selling falsehoods for Jesus.
Look at his weasel word email.
Just tell them to put their money where their mouth is and put up someone to debate so we can see publicly who is making the blunders.
This is a public forum. The debate would be public and we would most definitely be able to see who is making the blunders.
As a fellow Christian, I am appalled by the Professional Biblical Creationists who make their living by preying on the gullibility of the Christian Laity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Eilidh, posted 06-19-2007 4:15 AM Eilidh has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 47 of 77 (406342)
06-19-2007 12:00 PM


God, not the Scots, invented golf balls!
About a week ago, when John MacKay was first mentioned on this thread, I googled him, found his website, and had a look around.
I didn't find any scientific evidence against evolution, or for a young earth, but I did learn something that might upset all proud Scots. They didn't invent golf balls.
First, I read this:
(From creationresearch.net)
quote:
The Creation Research team of researchers travel the world to seek evidence (fossil and living), as part of our investigation of the worldwide consequences of Creation and the Flood.
I thought "great, evidence, that's what I want to see"
I was immediately and strangely attracted to a link that said "Fossil Golf Balls" (wouldn't you be?)
I arrived on this page:
Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied
And was informed:
Creation Research writes:
MAN DIDN’T INVENT GOLF BALLS as we discover perfect miniature fossil "golf ball" (below), complete with dimples in Dinosaur bed Montana.
Our discovery looks like a perfect miniature fossil golf ball, but what do you think it really is? Actual size.
As you ponder the similarity of the modern golf ball to the dinosaur bed fossil it should remind you of what the Bible says, "..... There is nothing new under the sun." Eccelesiastes 1: 9 (King James Version) . How true this is.
So now we know. Mackay is a long-time friend and colleague of Ken Ham, so a suggested addition to Ken's creation museum would be a scene with Adam and Eve playing golf, perhaps with a friendly dinosaur caddying, which, I think, would enhance the display enormously.
I eagerly await the discovery of fossilized golf clubs, not to mention the first baseball.
Edited by bluegenes, : Trivia!

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Modulous, posted 06-19-2007 12:30 PM bluegenes has replied
 Message 49 by NosyNed, posted 06-19-2007 12:51 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 48 of 77 (406346)
06-19-2007 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by bluegenes
06-19-2007 12:00 PM


Re: God, not the Scots, invented golf balls!
Our discovery looks like a perfect miniature fossil golf ball, but what do you think it really is? Actual size.
A bit nutty - but I think it should be pointed out how big the actual size is on that page (14px2 on my screen). Pretty darn small.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by bluegenes, posted 06-19-2007 12:00 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by bluegenes, posted 06-19-2007 1:14 PM Modulous has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 49 of 77 (406350)
06-19-2007 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by bluegenes
06-19-2007 12:00 PM


Re: God, not the Scots, invented golf balls!
This is obviously not intended to be serious even by them.
But note that even this they can not report on accurately.
quote:
as we discover perfect miniature fossil "golf ball" (below), complete with dimples in Dinosaur bed Montana.
(emphasis added)
It is not "perfect" at all. Not even near. It is not a sphere and it is far from uniformly dimpled. It is also probably not a fossil either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by bluegenes, posted 06-19-2007 12:00 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 50 of 77 (406352)
06-19-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Modulous
06-19-2007 12:30 PM


Re: God, not the Scots, invented golf balls!
The whole thing's odd. They don't seem to be claiming that it actually is a golf ball, but if not, what's the relevance to the biblical quote at the end?
And anyway, why is this presented as one of about six sections under the description that I quoted?
quote:
The Creation Research team of researchers travel the world to seek evidence (fossil and living), as part of our investigation of the worldwide consequences of Creation and the Flood.
Golf ball or not, fossil or not, they're really scraping the barrel if that's one of their star exhibits showing "the worldwide consequences of Creation and the Flood".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Modulous, posted 06-19-2007 12:30 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 51 of 77 (406353)
06-19-2007 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Eilidh
06-19-2007 4:15 AM


Re: Marvellous!
Hi Eilidh
That is quite disappointing. I really was hoping to see a written, permanently recorded debate with a creationist scientist which would be open to all to view and assess.
Such a debate relies on the evidence and arguments presented 'doing the talking' rather than the charisma and showmanship of the debators.
I am sure that Mr John Mackay is an execellent public speaker and showman. I have no doubt that in a one on one verbal debate he is extremely entertaining, convincing and adept at presenting his case as superior.
However I am infinitely more interested in the detailed arguments and evidence of the creationist viewpoint than the personalities of those presenting them.
To my knowledge no fully fledged creationist scientist has EVER taken part in a forum style publicly viewable written debate before.
Mr John McKay would truly be a trailblazer in his field if he were to agree to take part in such a debate!!!
It also avoids all the logistical problems of a face to face single point encounter (travel, expense, availability etc. etc.)
If he wants a 1 on 1 debate rather than a mass exchange that is a perfectly fair request. There are a number of willing participants here at EvC who will take on that challenge (Dr Adequate has already started along that track and could continue)
Would you pass on my comments to Mr McKay and suggest to him the compromise of a written forum 1 on 1 debate rather than the more superficial presentation he is suggesting?
I look forward to hearing back from you (and John MacKay!) soon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Eilidh, posted 06-19-2007 4:15 AM Eilidh has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 52 of 77 (406355)
06-19-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Eilidh
06-19-2007 4:15 AM


Showmanship
As noted by others it isn't the showmanship that counts but the actual reasoning and evidence.
You'll note that for much of the discussions around here those who are not recognized experts are willing to carry the debate to the best of their ability.
This is partially because it is an excellent way to be corrected in things one doesn't understand. It is also because it isn't the expertise that counts but the material itself.
If Mr. McKay thinks that getting his ideas presented to convince others is important perhaps he will help you to carry them from him to us. Almost all (some cosmology pointedly excepted) of the material can be explained to the layman who is willing to work at it a bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Eilidh, posted 06-19-2007 4:15 AM Eilidh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Eilidh, posted 06-19-2007 1:51 PM NosyNed has replied

  
Eilidh
Junior Member (Idle past 6126 days)
Posts: 21
Joined: 06-11-2007


Message 53 of 77 (406357)
06-19-2007 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by NosyNed
06-19-2007 1:39 PM


Re: Showmanship
Awwww, come on guys, be fair!!! I placed John in quite a position. He had no background knowledge as to what I was landing him into.
He works very hard and I worried before asking him, because I knew that he has very little spare time.
I did state on the thread, that I didn't know whether he would be willing to participate or not. Well, he wasn't!
Believe me, he's not the type to shirk off anything. So that's an end to it.
Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by NosyNed, posted 06-19-2007 1:39 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NosyNed, posted 06-19-2007 2:02 PM Eilidh has not replied
 Message 55 by bluegenes, posted 06-19-2007 2:38 PM Eilidh has not replied
 Message 56 by Coragyps, posted 06-19-2007 2:55 PM Eilidh has not replied
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 06-19-2007 3:45 PM Eilidh has not replied
 Message 60 by Straggler, posted 06-19-2007 4:25 PM Eilidh has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 54 of 77 (406358)
06-19-2007 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Eilidh
06-19-2007 1:51 PM


The advantage here
No spare time?
The advantage here is that a few minutes every few days is enough to demonstrate that you know what you are talking about and to, slowly, move the discussion forward.
The disadvantage here is that you do actually have to know what you are talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Eilidh, posted 06-19-2007 1:51 PM Eilidh has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 55 of 77 (406363)
06-19-2007 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Eilidh
06-19-2007 1:51 PM


Re: Showmanship
It might be worth pointing out to Mr. MacKay that there are nearly 500 people on this site as I'm writing. I don't know how many people will have read the comments made by Dr. Adequate about MacKay's website since they were posted about 6 days ago, but it could be running into thousands already, and if we keep on drawing attention to the post, it will soon run into tens of thousands, far more than will turn up to see Mr. MacKay live over the next five years or so.
It would be well worth Mr. MacKay defending himself here, if he's capable of doing so.
If he doesn't, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that he cannot, not because he's too busy for such a potentially large audience, but because he's incapable of arguing his views on a forum where everything he says can be examined in detail.
For those who haven't read it, here's Dr. Adequate's post.
http://EvC Forum: Discussion of John MacKay's Views -->EvC Forum: Discussion of John MacKay's Views
If I was the author of a website which had been criticized in those terms on a busy , public forum, I'd certainly reply and defend myself. What kind of person wouldn't?
Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Eilidh, posted 06-19-2007 1:51 PM Eilidh has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 56 of 77 (406365)
06-19-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Eilidh
06-19-2007 1:51 PM


Re: Showmanship
because I knew that he has very little spare time.
Spare time? He's a professional creationist apologist, right? This sort of thing should be what he does!

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Eilidh, posted 06-19-2007 1:51 PM Eilidh has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 57 of 77 (406373)
06-19-2007 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Eilidh
06-19-2007 1:51 PM


Re: Showmanship
Your reaction to John MacKay should be one of resentment. He has sent you off to battle the evilutionists armed with a gun filled with blanks, and when you discovered this fact and turned to him for help he said, "Hey, you're on your own." Great guy!
The only bullet left in your arsenal is to say, "Well, MacKay's bullets may just be blanks when in my gun, but I'm sure they'd be very effective when in his." Don't hold your breath.
John MacKay has very good reasons for not appearing in venues like this, and none of them have anything to do with how busy he is. It has to do with there being neither money nor opportunity involved.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Eilidh, posted 06-19-2007 1:51 PM Eilidh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2007 4:23 PM Percy has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 58 of 77 (406374)
06-19-2007 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Eilidh
06-19-2007 4:15 AM


Re: Marvellous!
John Mckay writes:
Just tell them to put their money where their mouth is and put up someone to
debate so we can see publicly who is making the blunders. I will be in
UK/Scotland in October/November so we can do it then if they get in soon. Let me
know what happens and thanks for your concern. If there is any thing you want to
ask go for it.
In Christ
John Mackay
To quote myself in message #20:
Dr Adequate writes:
What did he give them, the old Gish Gallop?
He should come here, we'd teach him a thing or two.
I am still prepared to put my money where my mouth is: which involves doing what I said I would do, rather than obeying Mr Mckay's whims by doing something I didn't say I would do. Someone should explain the distinction to him before he inadvertently gives offense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Eilidh, posted 06-19-2007 4:15 AM Eilidh has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 77 (406375)
06-19-2007 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Percy
06-19-2007 3:45 PM


Re: Showmanship
It has to do with there being neither money nor opportunity involved.
Don't forget being proven wrong and humiliated...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Percy, posted 06-19-2007 3:45 PM Percy has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 60 of 77 (406376)
06-19-2007 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Eilidh
06-19-2007 1:51 PM


Re: Showmanship
Is there a single recognised creation scientist who is willing to take part in a publicly viewable written debate?
Can Mr Mackay reccommend or suggest any suitably qualified creation scientists to present the creationist case in his place?
Will you ask him that?
There must be one!!!
This should be a new EvC campaign - To have a publicly recognised (i.e. one who regularly contributes to official creationist literature) creation scientist take part in a written forum debate.
How can we present the challenge to the official creationist movement?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Eilidh, posted 06-19-2007 1:51 PM Eilidh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2007 4:28 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 62 by subbie, posted 06-19-2007 4:36 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 66 by Jazzns, posted 06-19-2007 5:30 PM Straggler has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024