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Author
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Topic: Formal and Informal Logic
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Logic of morals
RobinRohan writes: My point was that one CAN'T reason from a moral standpoint. Therefore, all moral rules are groundless. and
PurpleYouko writes: And my point is that there is no such thing as a moral standpoint. What we call morals are hard coded survival instincts in our DNA I would like to question both of those positions. First Robin's. If a moral rule is based on the cummulative experience of a society, why would it be groundless? And for PurpleYouko. If the basis is simply hard coded instructions in DNA, then why do we find variations among peoples with similar DNA? Why would the moral standards of two brothers, one raised in one society, the other raised is a totally different society with a different set of moral standards vary?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Logic of morals
jar asked:
If the basis is simply hard coded instructions in DNA, then why do we find variations among peoples with similar DNA? Why would the moral standards of two brothers, one raised in one society, the other raised is a totally different society with a different set of moral standards vary? to which PurpleYouko replied
For the same reasons that one brother might be 6'6" with blond hair, blue eyes and muscles that could tear sheet metal while the other brother could be 5'3" with brown hair and eyes, overweight and couldn't bench press 50 pounds. DNA varies from person to person, even brothers. Perhaps. But if that were the case why would the individuals morals most often mirror the society the person was raised in as opposed to some individual trait such as height or hair and eye color? I do not doubt that there is some gentic component that controls whether or not someone can learn moral behavior. But why does someones moral behavior most often reflect the society and era, and how can someones morals change over time and with experience if it is only genetically determined?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Logic of morals
jar asked:
If a moral rule is based on the cummulative experience of a society, why would it be groundless? to which Robin asserted:
It's subjective. There's no logical ground for it. It doesn't matter if there's a "cumulative experience" or not. "Society" is an abstraction. Individuals make moral choices, not society. First, I never said that society makes moral choices although I do believe that I could support such an assertion. What does it being subjective have to do with it being groundless?
There's no logical ground for it. It doesn't matter if there's a "cumulative experience" or not. Why? If it is based on cummulative experience is that not a logical reason?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Logic of morals
jar asked what seemed a pretty simple question:
Why? If it is based on cummulative experience is that not a logical reason? to which robinrohan replied:
No. There's no logical reason why someone shouldn't reject any moral rule whatsoever, since there is no logical reason for pronouncing any action either good or bad. All you can do is think up another moral principle to "prove" the original one, and that moral principle is as ungrounded as the first one was. What does any of that have to do with what I asked? So let's try again, if it is based on cummulative experience is that not a logical reason?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 121 of 191 (330842)
07-11-2006 2:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 119 by ramoss
07-11-2006 1:55 PM
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Re: Logic of morals
That is because the desire for morals is 'hard wired'.. but the morals themselves are shapped by society. Just like the ability to learn language as a child is hard coded into the child, but what language is learned is taught. That may be true, but is there any indication that there is any "desire for morals" beyond either a desire to learn, a desire to conform or a desire to maximize return while mininmizing effort?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by ramoss, posted 07-11-2006 1:55 PM | | ramoss has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 122 by ramoss, posted 07-11-2006 2:06 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Logic of morals
robin brings up his classic example:
I'm just an ordinary guy who is certain he can murder a particular person and get away with it and profit by it. Why shouldn't I do it? Let's suppose I CAN get away with it. and then asks the question:
quote:
What does cumulative experience tell us about the following scenario?
The incident that you outline, when examined using cummulative experience, says that there are several possibilities. First, based on the fact that most murders do get solved, that the person is simply mistaken, will get caught and will end up suffering. The second possibility is that the person is delusional, crazy. The third is that the person might actually get away with it. Of the three, the most likely is that he is just crazy.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Logic of morals
Number 1.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Logic of morals
What does this mean? I said let's ASSUME he can get away with it (people do, you know). Yes they do make that assumption. And in almsot all cases they are wrong. That is what it means. You are asking another really silly question it seems to me. You want to know what a phychopath should do. What should some nutcase that wants to kill somebody and is convinced he can get away with murder do? More importantly, what should the rest of us do about someone who wants to kill somebody and believes that he can get away with it? If you want to try to bring morals into your pathetic example, then the moral answer is to not murder somebody.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Logic of morals
Because the learned experience of society is that in the long run such behavior is counter productive. If people simply murder others because it is in their personal interest and they believe they can get away with it, the society, clan, group, town, city or whatever quickly becomes a place of fear. Society as a whole has decided that such behavior should not be tolerated and therefore, such behavior will be considered immoral. In addition, as said several times before, the cummulative experience of the society says that the person will not get away with it. Like I said, it is a pathetic example.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Why should I care about society? Maybe I just care about me. If I can do it, get away with it, and prosper from it, I don't see why I shouldn't do it. Suppose I don't care about the long run; maybe I just care about the short run. Yes, as I said, you could be psychopathic. That is certainly one possibility. You could well be someone with no sense of morality. If that is the case then the question becomes, "What do the rest of us do about you?"
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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According to your scheme, "psychopathic" is just another word for "evil" since what constitutes evil is to do that which is disruptive for society in the long run. And I suppose you can show where I said that?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Try again Robin.
Please point out where I used the term evil in that?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 143 by robinrohan, posted 07-12-2006 4:49 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: No not evil, Anti-social!
Exactly. Anti-social is an apt term.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: No not evil, Anti-social!
Interesting question but don't you think you've carried this far enough away from the topic? You can always start yet another interminable thread if you want.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 150 by robinrohan, posted 07-12-2006 5:02 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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