Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 58 (9173 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,565 Year: 4,822/9,624 Month: 170/427 Week: 83/85 Day: 0/20 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Losing Objectivity
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2774 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 16 of 28 (604000)
02-09-2011 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
02-09-2011 2:15 PM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
Hi, Ringo.
ringo writes:
As I see it, it's a mistake to think of objectivity as an individual endeavour.
I completely agree. As an example, I offer science.
Individual scientists are brutal, arrogant people who generally always have an agenda to push, so anybody who thinks objectivity can be found at the level of individual scientists is a blissfully ignorant sap. "Big name" scientists become big name scientists by having a line to sell, not by doing good science.
However, in the case of science, the community is not just the sum of its parts, and the collective activities of the community as a whole tend to approximate objectivity much better, even though none of the parts accomplish this.
I'm a rather sensitive person when it comes to things like this, so I have to keep reminding myself that, in the long run, science will not suffer just because, e.g., some jackass editor insists that I can't say what everybody else who's read the manuscript---as well as the entire body of existing literature on the subject---agrees I can justify with my data.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 02-09-2011 2:15 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 17 of 28 (604002)
02-09-2011 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Stile
02-09-2011 2:23 PM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
Stile writes:
I only think this merits attention because it's good to have as many ways as possible to battle "losing objectivity." And this is the best way I can think of for doing such internally.
When you're physically ill, you need to recognize that you can't solve the problem by yourself. I'm not convinced that adding techniques for self-medication is a good idea. The more tools you have, the less likely you are to admit that you can't fix it yourself.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Stile, posted 02-09-2011 2:23 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 02-09-2011 3:00 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 18 of 28 (604005)
02-09-2011 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
02-09-2011 2:42 PM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
ringo writes:
When you're physically ill, you need to recognize that you can't solve the problem by yourself.
All the time? Are you sure? Do you apply this all the time to yourself, even?
What if it's not all that serious?
What if you can actually solve the problem by yourself?
I'm not convinced that adding techniques for self-medication is a good idea. The more tools you have, the less likely you are to admit that you can't fix it yourself.
I agree with you when talking about certain people.
But not all people.
I believe that a certain group of people exist that have enough self-control (in the form of self-honesty) that they can benefit from a personal, self-analysis such the one I discussed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 02-09-2011 2:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 02-09-2011 3:21 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 19 of 28 (604009)
02-09-2011 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Stile
02-09-2011 3:00 PM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
Stile writes:
What if you can actually solve the problem by yourself?
How many people die of a brain tumor because it was "just a headache"? Even doctors shouldn't medicate themselves.
Stile writes:
I believe that a certain group of people exist that have enough self-control (in the form of self-honesty) that they can benefit from a personal, self-analysis such the one I discussed.
Every creationist on earth puts himself in that group. I prefer to stay out of that group.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 02-09-2011 3:00 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Stile, posted 02-09-2011 3:39 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 20 of 28 (604015)
02-09-2011 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
02-09-2011 3:21 PM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
ringo writes:
How many people die of a brain tumor because it was "just a headache"? Even doctors shouldn't medicate themselves.
How many people clog the medical system by forcing a doctor to waste time focusing on their obviously minimal issues instead of actually helping people who need it?
I'm not saying the side of the issue you're talking about doesn't exist. I agree with you that the method I'm proposing is A) minimally secondary and B) should be used with the utmost care.
But if you're trying to say it's useless, you'll have to do more than simply assert that some people exist where it would be detrimental.
ringo writes:
Stile writes:
I believe that a certain group of people exist that have enough self-control (in the form of self-honesty) that they can benefit from a personal, self-analysis such the one I discussed.
Every creationist on earth puts himself in that group. I prefer to stay out of that group.
And I'm saying, that this is impossible for some situations. There are people/situations that exist where double-checking with other people is not always an option.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 02-09-2011 3:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 02-09-2011 3:50 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 21 of 28 (604017)
02-09-2011 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Stile
02-09-2011 3:39 PM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
Stile writes:
I agree with you that the method I'm proposing is A) minimally secondary and B) should be used with the utmost care.
The problem is that the people who are most likely to use your method are the least likely to use it with care. I don't believe in encouraging people to do what they're already doing too much.
Stile writes:
There are people/situations that exist where double-checking with other people is not always an option.
Then you can't expect to be objective in those situations.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Stile, posted 02-09-2011 3:39 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 02-09-2011 3:59 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 22 of 28 (604018)
02-09-2011 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
02-09-2011 3:50 PM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
ringo writes:
The problem is that the people who are most likely to use your method are the least likely to use it with care.
How so?
I would argue that the people you're talking about don't care enough to investigate or attempt to understand the method I've described. I think they would just ignore such things all together.
What makes you think that folk-who-think-they're-great-at-being-objective would waste their time investigating ways to be more objective?
Isn't it more reasonable to assume that the only people who would search out and attempt to investigate this method would be those who are honest enough with themselves to understand that they may not know everything yet?
I don't believe in encouraging people to do what they're already doing too much.
And I believe in trying to help each and every one of us reach our full potential in any and all ways.
If you have an idea on how my method cannot possibly help in any fashion, then I'm all ears.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 02-09-2011 3:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 02-09-2011 4:34 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 23 of 28 (604024)
02-09-2011 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stile
02-09-2011 3:59 PM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
Stile writes:
I would argue that the people you're talking about don't care enough to investigate or attempt to understand the method I've described. I think they would just ignore such things all together.
But they think they're already doing it.
You seem to be preaching to the choir. You're saying, "Well done, keep doing what you're doing," but the fellow with his hand in the poor box thinks you're talking to him.
I'm not saying you shouldn't encourage the choir. I'm just saying that the negative effects might outweigh the positive.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 02-09-2011 3:59 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Tram law
Member (Idle past 4781 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 25 of 28 (606710)
02-27-2011 11:39 PM


Well, I haven't lost my objectivity, but I have lost a lot of tolerance for things like denialism. It's one thing to not understand something, or being incapable of understanding something, or simply have a different take on something, but to simply deny it because you don't want to believe it when the real evidence and proof is there in front of your face.
Basically, it's like watching Bait Car. A person is caught stealing a car on tape, and in some cases shown the tape and they still sit there and deny they stole the car. That kind of stupidity I no longer have any tolerance for. That's just the kind of thing one can't really be objective about. Not to mention dishonesty and dishonest tactics.
For objectivity, I want to see real evidence, not just claims, anecdotes, and arguments. It's the evidence that will convince me of something is true or not.

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 26 of 28 (606722)
02-28-2011 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Stile
02-09-2011 1:50 PM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
We need to practice at being irrational.
However, if we practice being irrational every now and then, our minds can become familiar with what irrationality is.
Sounds rational. How does one go about doing this? Should you do this in public? In front of the police? My girlfriend?
Should I join a different forum where I take on the role of creationist? Negotiate the price of my morning coffee with the young ladies at the QuickTrip? Refuse to acknowledge the usual and customary meaning of a stop light? Walk in and just set myself up in the president's office?
How would one know if this "practice" is sufficiently irrational? Do I get arrested? slapped? And If I am not irrational enough to get in trouble for it how can I be sure I was really being irrational?
Another problem, if you could, please. If I practice being irrational it is because I recognize what irrational is. If I have fallen into an actual bout of irrationality it is because I recognize my actions as being rational. Even after practicing being irrational and knowing it doesn't fell rational how would I even suspect?
I'm thinking, rationally, that maybe I have no idea what you're getting at. Got any examples?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Stile, posted 02-09-2011 1:50 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Stile, posted 03-01-2011 4:00 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member (Idle past 120 days)
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 27 of 28 (607051)
03-01-2011 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by AZPaul3
02-28-2011 1:05 AM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
AZPaul3 writes:
Sounds rational. How does one go about doing this?
By being irrational on purpose, and making sure that you acknowledge it as such.
Should you do this in public? In front of the police? My girlfriend?
You can do it wherever you like.
Should I join a different forum where I take on the role of creationist? Negotiate the price of my morning coffee with the young ladies at the QuickTrip? Refuse to acknowledge the usual and customary meaning of a stop light? Walk in and just set myself up in the president's office?
I wouldn't recommend any of those later ideas, they all seem very extreme.
I'm sure that using your imagination to create a silly story, or choosing the blue t-shirt over the red one some generic morning would do just fine. The point is in acknowledging the irrationality and therefore helping your brain to identify it. The point is not to be so extreme as to break the law or disregard the rights of other people.
You do understand that irrational things can be productive and good as well, right?
Things like poetry, art and guessing are irrational.
How would one know if this "practice" is sufficiently irrational? Do I get arrested? slapped? And If I am not irrational enough to get in trouble for it how can I be sure I was really being irrational?
It is sufficiently irrational if it is not objectively rational.
If you cannot identify rationality vs. irrationality without requiring some form of punishment, then this tool is beyond the point of helping you.
Another problem, if you could, please. If I practice being irrational it is because I recognize what irrational is. If I have fallen into an actual bout of irrationality it is because I recognize my actions as being rational. Even after practicing being irrational and knowing it doesn't fell rational how would I even suspect?
I'm not claiming this as a method for becoming objective.
I'm claiming this as a simple tool for helping one stay objective. Not the best tool. Not the only tool. Just a tool.
This tool will never 100% prevent losing objectivity. And it's quite possible that the scenario you describe here could still happen none-the-less. I'm just saying that this is a viable possibility for helping.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by AZPaul3, posted 02-28-2011 1:05 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by fearandloathing, posted 03-01-2011 5:50 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4221 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 28 of 28 (607066)
03-01-2011 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Stile
03-01-2011 4:00 PM


Re: Keep up your rationality by being... irrational?
Stile it sounds like you are trying to say that everyone should play "devils advocate" from time to time. I can live with that. I do so sometimes in order to see if I can find anything to support some peoples claims. But usualy all I do is reinforce my own beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Stile, posted 03-01-2011 4:00 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024