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Author Topic:   Reasons for Creationist Persistence
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 181 of 220 (402948)
05-30-2007 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Tyberius
05-30-2007 5:35 PM


Re: The Current Plan of the Christian Cult of Ignorance
I see that your post has initiated speculation that ignorance is a significant reason for creationist persistence in the face of rejection by both science and the courts. Just to get an accurate handle on this, let me briefly summarize the errors contained in your two messages:

  1. Natural laws and science render evolution impossible.
  2. No lab experiment has ever demonstrated the creation of new genetic information.
  3. Molecules gaining information goes against the laws of nature.
  4. Evolution isn't possible.
  5. Evolutionists claim viruses evolve resistance to antibiotics.
  6. Viruses never mutate for the better.
  7. Virus genomes never gain information through mutation.
  8. A more lethal virus is not a "better" virus.
  9. Virus mutation means slowly turning into a fish.
  10. Evolution claims to be a theory of existence.
  11. Evolution contradicts itself.
  12. Evolution is accepted only because the true facts about it are kept hidden.
  13. Evolution mocks the laws of nature and science.
  14. Evolution only takes place through degeneration and loss of information.
  15. Science opposes the possibility that a virus could slowly become a better species.
  16. Disorder can only increase, never decrease.
  17. Genetics is a major flaw in evolutionary theory.

Breathtaking!

We don't want to turn this thread into discussions of these topics. There are plenty of threads already discussing them, and you can propose new threads if you wish. This thread is exploring the reasons why creationists persist in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence for evolution, and in the face of consistent court rulings that creationism is religion.

Your own position is likely to be that the 17 items listed above are actually correct statements, and that you're not ignorant at all. Convincing you that you're wrong would require actually discussing these topics, which we can't do in this thread, so we're left asking more general questions, such as where you're getting your information, and why you think science invalidates a theory widely accepted by the people who know science best, namely scientists.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Tyberius, posted 05-30-2007 5:35 PM Tyberius has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 182 of 220 (402977)
05-31-2007 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Tyberius
05-30-2007 5:35 PM


Re: The Current Plan of the Christian Cult of Ignorance
IT does not matter that it is "better". It is a degenerated form of the original virus.

You want to call adaptive evolution "degeneration"? Fine. Then you are a "degenerated" monkey.

And believe me genetics is a major flaw that cannot be ignored.

"Evolutionary theory ranks with Einstein's theory of relativity as one of modern science's most robust, generally accepted, thoroughly tested and broadly applicable concepts. From the standpoint of science, there is no controversy." --- Oliver A. Ryder, President of the American Genetic Association

I wonder if he knows more about genetics than you do?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Tyberius, posted 05-30-2007 5:35 PM Tyberius has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 183 of 220 (402994)
05-31-2007 10:17 AM


If I Was A Creationist ...
I think Tyberius' nonsense underlines what I was saying in post #33 and subsequent posts.

If I was a creationist, and I thought genetics proved me right, then I'd try to learn a little genetics, for the following reasons:

* I am interested in nature. I am interested in nature and in science generally. How can a person be aware that there's such a science as genetics, and not want to learn about it? So if I was a creationist who thought that genetics proved me right, I'd learn some genetics, and realise that I was wrong.

* I have some integrity. Before I would go around in public preaching some point of view, I'd make darn sure I was right, not just reciting some stuff I'd seen on some website. So before I went around talking rubbish about genetics in public, I'd learn some genetics, and realise that I was wrong.

* I have a logical mind. If there was some conflict between evolution and genetics, then at least one of them would be wrong. But I don't get to choose which, neither according to my prejudices nor by doing "eeney-meeney-miney-mo". I would have to study evolution and genetics carefully to find out which was right. So if I was a creationist who thought there was some conflict between genetics and evolution, I'd learn some genetics, and realise that I was wrong.

* I have some humility. If I was going to declare that hundreds of thousands of scientists are wrong, then, knowing my own limitations, and the fact that they are specialists in their subjects and I am not, I'd make darn sure that I was right and they were wrong. So I'd learn some genetics, and realise that I was wrong.

* I like winning arguments. If I was a creationist, and I believed that genetics proved me right, then I'd learn some genetics so I could present the proof. So I'd learn some genetics, and realise that I was wrong.

Creationists, in my experience, are not interested in nature; they have no integrity; they do not have logical minds; they have all the humility of Satan himself; and they do want to win the argument, but they are so ignorant of science and the scientific method that they have no idea what this would entail.

These are the reasons for creationist persistence. If they had a genuine desire to be right, then this would eventually lead them to abandon creationism.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Percy, posted 05-31-2007 11:25 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 185 by cavediver, posted 05-31-2007 3:44 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 184 of 220 (403003)
05-31-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dr Adequate
05-31-2007 10:17 AM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
Dr Adequate writes:

Creationists, in my experience, are not interested in nature; they have no integrity; they do not have logical minds; they have all the humility of Satan himself; and they do want to win the argument, but they are so ignorant of science and the scientific method that they have no idea what this would entail.

On average, lack of knowledge and expertise is extremely common at the grass roots level, for everyone, not just creationists, and because they're not really capable of studying the issues themselves they have to rely on what outside sources tell them. But this lack of ability to objectively study and analyze issues seems to persist right up the creationist chain of command. Most grass-roots creationists don't realize that there's an entire multi-million dollar industry led by people as misinformed as they are and that is dedicated to spreading the misinformed beliefs of their leaders just as widely as possible. Just the Discovery Institute's budget alone is greater than $5 million/year, while by comparison the National Center for Science Education (headed by Eugenie Scott) has a budget of less than a million.

I watched Flock of Dodos last night (airing at various times on Showtime this week), and it was very enlightening to hear dedicated and sincere creationists like Michael Behe and Jonathan Wells passionately advocate for their positions. I think they truly believe what they say. Filmmaker Randy Olson characterized their thinking as an idea which originated in the gut, like many scientific ideas, but which took up residence in the heart instead of the mind, explaining why their ideas generate no testable hypotheses.

Some ID positions, like "Teach the Controversy", are arguably purposeful lies, since knowledgeable IDists all realize there is no debate within scientific circles. I think it is blatant misstatements of fact like this, and like the the ever-so-common, "More and more scientists are recognizing the bankruptcy of evolution and joining the ranks of scientists in the intelligent design movement," that cause many scientists to dismiss the ID movement, since these are so obviously bald-faced lies, but the fact of the matter is that they are lies that are finding wide acceptance among the lay public.

A scientist near the end of the film had this suggestion: to ID's demands to teach their invented controversy we should simply respond, "Teach the science."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-31-2007 10:17 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 185 of 220 (403043)
05-31-2007 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Dr Adequate
05-31-2007 10:17 AM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
Creationists, in my experience, are not interested in nature; they have no integrity; they do not have logical minds; they have all the humility of Satan himself; and they do want to win the argument, but they are so ignorant of science and the scientific method that they have no idea what this would entail.

Hey, Dr A... have you ever been a fundementalist Christian? I disagree with several of your points above, but in any case they are all trumped by one over-arching fact:

Couple what Percy said:

On average, lack of knowledge and expertise is extremely common at the grass roots level, for everyone, not just creationists, and because they're not really capable of studying the issues themselves they have to rely on what outside sources tell them. But this lack of ability to objectively study and analyze issues seems to persist right up the creationist chain of command

with...

A typical fundementalist Christian will trust and believe another fundementalist Christian over ANYONE else. Of course there are ranks of trust with Christian circles, but just about anyone within the circle trumps anyone outside that circle. If we are talking about an elder, pastor, leader, or above... then they are speaking with God's authority and speaking against them, even in private, is an act of rebellion. This scary fact is true also (and in some cases especially true) of undergraduates and even graduates/post graduates.

Of course there are many evangelical Christians that I would not consider fundemental and fall outside of this scary subset of Christianity. My family and I attend a fundementalist church :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-31-2007 10:17 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Taz, posted 05-31-2007 5:00 PM cavediver has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 186 of 220 (403061)
05-31-2007 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by cavediver
05-31-2007 3:44 PM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
cavediver writes:

A typical fundementalist Christian will trust and believe another fundementalist Christian over ANYONE else. Of course there are ranks of trust with Christian circles, but just about anyone within the circle trumps anyone outside that circle.


While this is true to some degree, I don't think that this is the main reason why so many people have fallen into the creationist mindset pit. I seem to recall reading about an evangelical pastor that was converted from creationism and began preaching against it. Almost over night, he lost most of his attendees.

The simple fact is creationism is much simpler to digest than real science. Since most people have not spent the effort and time in learning real science, talking to real science minded people somewhat give them a sense of inferiority. But believing something as easy to digest as creationism, they don't have to spend much mental effort to be equals to scientists.

In other words, you could say that jealousy is why the creationist movement is so popular among the ignorant crowd.



We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.

Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by cavediver, posted 05-31-2007 3:44 PM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by berberry, posted 05-31-2007 9:51 PM Taz has responded
 Message 190 by cavediver, posted 06-01-2007 8:00 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 220 (403135)
05-31-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Taz
05-31-2007 5:00 PM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
Tazmanian Devil writes:

quote:
The simple fact is creationism is much simpler to digest than real science. Since most people have not spent the effort and time in learning real science, talking to real science minded people somewhat give them a sense of inferiority. But believing something as easy to digest as creationism, they don't have to spend much mental effort to be equals to scientists.

Absolutely! Not only that, but the typical creationist will have "spent the effort and time in learning" the book of Genesis. So that's the version of events they already know, which is one reason for what cavediver has observed.


W.W.E.D.?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Taz, posted 05-31-2007 5:00 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 188 of 220 (403142)
05-31-2007 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by berberry
05-31-2007 9:51 PM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
berberry writes:

Not only that, but the typical creationist will have "spent the effort and time in learning" the book of Genesis.


If you are implying what I think you're implying, I don't agree. The book of genesis isn't that complicated to read and learn. Any 8 year old child can do it. That versus the long hours after hours of frustration of preparations for exams and real life experience in the field.



We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.

Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by berberry, posted 05-31-2007 9:51 PM berberry has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by PaulK, posted 06-01-2007 1:53 AM Taz has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14747
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 189 of 220 (403154)
06-01-2007 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Taz
05-31-2007 11:29 PM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
A lot of people can't figure out Genesis. How many have worked out that Genesis 1:3-5 describe the creation of the day-nght cycle ? How many say it's about the Big Bang instead ? How many have figured out that the Serpent told the truth in Genesis 3:5 - even though it's confirmed in Genesis 3:7 and 3:22 ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Taz, posted 05-31-2007 11:29 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Taz, posted 06-01-2007 11:30 AM PaulK has responded

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 190 of 220 (403171)
06-01-2007 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Taz
05-31-2007 5:00 PM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
I seem to recall reading about an evangelical pastor that was converted from creationism and began preaching against it. Almost over night, he lost most of his attendees.

Yes, of course. He was no longer a Fundementalist...

The simple fact is creationism is much simpler to digest than real science.

I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with the situation. It is a community belief, simple as that. Don't foget that I am also talking about grads and post-grads, some in life-science.

Since most people have not spent the effort and time in learning real science, talking to real science minded people somewhat give them a sense of inferiority.

And how often do you suppose that grass-roots individuals talk to science-minded people? It is the LACK OF contact with such science-types that makes the job of indoctrinating creationism so easy. And it is the SUPERIORITY that a Christian feels that enables one to so easily dismiss 'secular' scientific views - this is especially true amongst young Christians in their school environment.

In other words, you could say that jealousy is why the creationist movement is so popular among the ignorant crowd.

:laugh: jealousy? are you kidding? There is pity, there is scorn, there is derision, there is anger, there is arrogance, and there is a huge dose of apathy to what the secular world thinks... but jealousy of scientists??? No, no, no...


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by berberry, posted 06-01-2007 9:21 AM cavediver has responded
 Message 192 by jar, posted 06-01-2007 10:26 AM cavediver has responded

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 220 (403181)
06-01-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by cavediver
06-01-2007 8:00 AM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
cavediver writes:

quote:
jealousy? are you kidding?

Well it's not that far-fetched. Taz's idea probably only applies to a small minority of those people, but I can tell you from first-hand experience that at least a few of them are deeply jealous of people who understand and can converse about scientific concepts. They are adults who probably regret the fact that they were either never taught science or didn't pay attention. They were taught their church's interpretation of the bible and not much, if anything, else. Consequently, they don't understand even the most basic tenets of evolution or big bang or whatever. They will calmly debate evolution using the arguments they've been taught, and they will remain calm until the conversation begins to go over their heads. That's when they begin to get angry, and I think jealousy might very well have everything to do with it.

Again, I'm talking about a rather atypical fundie. Perhaps you don't have them in the UK, but people like I've described are scattered all over the Deep South.


W.W.E.D.?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by cavediver, posted 06-01-2007 8:00 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by cavediver, posted 06-01-2007 10:53 AM berberry has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 192 of 220 (403198)
06-01-2007 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by cavediver
06-01-2007 8:00 AM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
And it is the SUPERIORITY that a Christian feels that enables one to so easily dismiss 'secular' scientific views - this is especially true amongst young Christians in their school environment.

Again, only SOME Christian Schools.

I am pretty much the product of Christian Primary School education so I can speak with some reliability about at least one such school. The reality there was that there was no isolation from secular views or science.

BUT...

... there are also the Christian Avoidance Schools, many, many here in the US. They really began expanding about 1958 over here and at first were simply opened so little Johnny or little Sally wouldn't have to go to school with black kids.

As color gradually became less and less a factor for the kids themselves, some new enemy was needed to keep the schools filled and the money flowing in. Science was a great substitute even though they did not set bigotry aside, just redirected it towards other populations such as atheists and homosexuals.

What you describe though is representative of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by cavediver, posted 06-01-2007 8:00 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by cavediver, posted 06-01-2007 11:10 AM jar has responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 193 of 220 (403205)
06-01-2007 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by berberry
06-01-2007 9:21 AM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
Hi Berberry,

First off, yes I'm sure there are Fundies like that but as you say, "I'm talking about a rather atypical fundie"

at least a few of them are deeply jealous of people who understand and can converse about scientific concepts. They are adults who probably regret the fact that they were either never taught science or didn't pay attention. They were taught their church's interpretation of the bible and not much, if anything, else.

If they are really at that point of regret, I would suggest that they are ripe for de-conversion from Fundie-hood. If they truly think that they are missing something, that is a good sign. I would thus place jealousy as a positive marker. It is those, in the vast majority, who do not think they have missed anything - on the contrary they have avoided the secular brainwashing!

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by berberry, posted 06-01-2007 9:21 AM berberry has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1716 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 194 of 220 (403211)
06-01-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
06-01-2007 10:26 AM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
Hi Jar, sorry I've give the wrong impression here - I am only talking about Creationist/Fundies so yes, the CCoI.

And I'm not talking about Christian schools, just Fundie kids in normal state/private schools. Given a clique of two or three minimum, they will have the confidence and superiority complex to laugh at all the evolution/secular teaching - this attitude is carefully nurtured on Sundays.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 06-01-2007 10:26 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by jar, posted 06-01-2007 11:38 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 195 of 220 (403217)
06-01-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by PaulK
06-01-2007 1:53 AM


Re: If I Was A Creationist ...
Paulk writes:

A lot of people can't figure out Genesis. How many have worked out that Genesis 1:3-5 describe the creation of the day-nght cycle ? How many say it's about the Big Bang instead ? How many have figured out that the Serpent told the truth in Genesis 3:5 - even though it's confirmed in Genesis 3:7 and 3:22 ?


Sorry, I have zero ability to interpret allegorical or metaphorical bullshit. Seriously, give me a poem and I'll just stare at it for hours without being able to understand what the author is trying to tell me.



We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.

Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by PaulK, posted 06-01-2007 1:53 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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