Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Help Needed with an argument against ToE
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2497 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 4 of 22 (476265)
07-22-2008 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by creative-evolutionist
07-22-2008 9:12 AM


Childish Metaphysics
It's a terrible argument! He seems to be saying that if our minds are products of evolution, then that in some way means they cannot have the ability to examine the world objectively. That's silly, because it assumes that the ability to examine the world objectively would not be an advantageous trait that could be selected for.
Think about it, and the opposite is true. Even if it weren't, he would need to understand the concept of "by-product" in evolutionary psychology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by creative-evolutionist, posted 07-22-2008 9:12 AM creative-evolutionist has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2497 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 9 of 22 (476295)
07-22-2008 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
07-22-2008 2:11 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
P.S: I believe that the argument originates with C. S. Lewis, if anyone can remember the reference and/or quote the passage for me, I'd be most grateful.
It is similar to a C.S Lewis argument, but this one actually comes from a Muslim source.
Evolution and Islam
Ironically, our ability to figure out things like evolution is much easier to understand in terms of advantageous selection than our tendency to be religious, which puzzles many evolutionary psychologists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-22-2008 2:11 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-22-2008 4:34 PM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2497 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 11 of 22 (476300)
07-22-2008 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Adequate
07-22-2008 4:34 PM


Calling C. S. Lewis fans!
Adequate writes:
Do you know where it is in his oeuvre?
A half educated guess would be in "Mere Christianity", but a Lewis fan like Nemesis Juggernaut might be able to give you chapter and verse, so as to speak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-22-2008 4:34 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2497 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 20 of 22 (476465)
07-24-2008 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Dr Adequate
07-23-2008 9:39 AM


Plantinga
Dr Adequate writes:
I think we can grant him that; we can imagine someone thinking irrational thoughts such that his irrational beliefs "cancel out", as it were, with the net result that he behaves in a pro-survival way, and if such a system of thought existed, natural selection would make no distinction between this system and genuine rationality.
Ironically, not only can we grant him that, we can give a very likely example. Religion. The tendency to invent religions, including creation mythologies, and then believe them, is a very good example of human brain imperfection. Whether or not this tendency has ever conferred advantages in itself is hotly debated (because it could be a chance by-product of advantageous characteristics). However, we could think of possible advantages, like helping a social animal cope with grief (a potential killer), enabling advantageous emotional attachments between individuals of a very social species when life was often nasty, brutish and short. So we get animism and ancestor worship, and every single culture invents some sort of religion.
We can also look at the basic abilities that make it possible for us to do science, and see that those could be advantageous to hunter/gatherer ancestors. This is where I find Plantinga goes really wrong. He's not trying to disprove evolution, of course. Rather, he's trying to prove his religious belief that there is something more to the human mind than what nature, through natural selection, can produce. He fails, because there's no reason why natural selection shouldn't produce a mind that can analyse nature. Such a mind has obvious advantages.
I'm not demonstrating here that his apparent belief that the human mind has a supernatural element is false. Merely that his attempt to present an argument for that belief is spurious.
Another point that strikes me as odd about his confidence in the reliability of our mental faculties, made in the image of his God, is that he must be aware that most of the world doesn't believe in his God, but does believe in other Gods who are not Jesus. It follows then, that he should recognise the statistically provable fact that a majority of people now and throughout history hold false beliefs (whether his own religion is true or false).
How much does he get paid to philosophise, I wonder?
Here on EvC, we see those two evolved characteristics, the tendency to invent false universes, and the ability to observe and analyse the real one, in direct conflict. We're a weird species, when you think about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-23-2008 9:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-24-2008 7:16 AM bluegenes has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024