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Author Topic:   Bible Cryptids/Dinosaurs?
ringo
Member
Posts: 18268
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 136 of 202 (300034)
04-01-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by arachnophilia
04-01-2006 5:19 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
arachnophilia writes:

"his breath kindles coals" is figurative for "fire breathing." i don't suspect it's a metaphor, on top of the figurative language.

Hmmm.... Here's me thinking that a non-literal beast can not breathe literal fire. :)

I'm not suggesting that there's a metaphor "on top of the figurative language". I'm saying that if Leviathan is not literal, then the description of him is automatically not literal, regardless of how literal the language used to describe him.

but i don't think it's a good enough reason to go reading prehistoric reptiles into it, either.

I was keeping this Derringer in my boot (figuratively ;) ), but I'll bring it out now, in case Ludo doesn't take the Leviathan-hook:

quote:
Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.

It sounds like there is only one Leviathan - no Mrs. Leviathan, no Leviathan Jr. (heir to the throne), no baby Leviathans, no Leviathan eggs....

Literal animals are populations, not unique individuals. (I noticed that one of Ludo's references goes on about the Loch Ness monster. One of the criticisms of that legend is that Loch Ness is not big enough to sustain a population of such large creatures.)

So, "On earth there is not his like" strongly suggests a non-literal Leviathan, more of a Godzilla than a literal dinosaur. The Book of Job is the first Japanese monster movie.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by arachnophilia, posted 04-01-2006 5:19 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by arachnophilia, posted 04-01-2006 3:26 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 522 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 137 of 202 (300094)
04-01-2006 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ringo
04-01-2006 10:11 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Hmmm.... Here's me thinking that a non-literal beast can not breathe literal fire.

I'm not suggesting that there's a metaphor "on top of the figurative language". I'm saying that if Leviathan is not literal, then the description of him is automatically not literal, regardless of how literal the language used to describe him.

don't confuse "literal" with "real." leviathan may not be a real animal, but parts of the description can be literal.

It sounds like there is only one Leviathan - no Mrs. Leviathan, no Leviathan Jr. (heir to the throne), no baby Leviathans, no Leviathan eggs....

tradition has it that leviathan is pissed because god killed mrs. leviathan at the beginning of the world.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 138 of 202 (301058)
04-05-2006 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
03-31-2006 7:34 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Ringo: a Croc's hide is strong enough to repell harpoons and spears (Dinosaurs and the Bible" Ralph O. Muncaster)

I will quote the book's words later. Gotta go.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 03-31-2006 7:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18268
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 139 of 202 (301106)
04-05-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by LudoRephaim
04-05-2006 9:20 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRehaim writes:

a Croc's hide is strong enough to repell harpoons and spears....

Since you lova da references so much, here's a picture or two of African crocodile hunters.

Tell those guys it can't be done. :)


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-05-2006 9:20 AM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-05-2006 10:12 PM ringo has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 522 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 140 of 202 (301291)
04-05-2006 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by LudoRephaim
04-05-2006 9:20 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
a Croc's hide is strong enough to repell harpoons and spears (Dinosaurs and the Bible" Ralph O. Muncaster)

i'm starting to doubt this source, ludo.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-05-2006 9:20 AM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-05-2006 10:14 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 141 of 202 (301382)
04-05-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by ringo
04-05-2006 11:39 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Finally, you quote a SOURCE !!!!

Ask you a question: The source you posted shows that people today can hunt Crocs with spears, but it doesn't say HOW they hunt the crocs. Do they stab them through the back? Head? Do they get them to open their mouths and then stab them in the throat? Do they hunt full grown 20-foot adults (I dont think they would wade in water or sail in such a small boat if doing so, lest they be EATEN by a 20 foot Croc!)Are they hunting young Crocs? smaller females? Are you sure they can pierce a huge Croc's back? I'd like to see absolute proof that they can do it with spears.

Karankawa Indians (on average 6-7 feet tall, depending on what source you read) could kill quite large alligators by ramming huge logs into their mouths, but they didn't wade in the water or do so from such small craft.

The story in Job seems to take place in the time of Abraham, or Patriarchial age (Holman Bible dictionary, 924)which would put him in the Bronze age, when bronze was plenty and iron scarce yet precious. The spearmen in your pics seem to have iron tipped spearheads. I doubt they could exert enough force to pierce a 17-20 footer's back scales, let alone if they where made out of bronze. Can bronze spearpoints actually pierce a huge Croc's back?

You said before that if you had a few guys, a rope and some spears that you could take a Croc or something like that. Could you do it alone? Could you do it by yourself, armed with nothing but bronze age weaponry, against an animals that can weigh over 200 pounds, has a tough hide, can bite with a force of 3000 pounds of psi, and a nasty temper? What about if you where covered with boils (Job 2:7)? Job never gets to add "if I had a few guys" Because God asks if HE, not he and many others, HE could take on a Leviathan. There was plenty of time for a whole bunch of guys to be mentioned to help Job against Leviathan, just as fishhooks, ropes, spears, harpoons and hooks are mentioned as being available in this hypothetical clash between Job and Leviathan (Look closely at Job 41) Yet they never are. God doesn't need anybody to help him take on such beasts, and Job is being asked if he could do the same. Modern man can kill Crocs with spears. But what about the ancients of the Middle East, who had primitive brinze age weaponry? What about the people that lived where Job lived? Would they tackle a massive male croc?

You said that Leviathan was a single creature because it only mentions one, hence mythical. I guess wild oxen are mythical two, since only ONE is mentioned (Job 39:9-12) I guess wild donkeys are mythical two, since onlyone is mentioned in Job (Job 39:5-8)

You say that Leviathan is supernatural because, unlike a croc, it can't be killed or hunted (Job 41) Then I guess wild Oxen could not be domesticated, since they seem undomesticatable in the text (Job 39:9-12)Yet, if I remember corectly, all modern cattle breeds came from the wild ox, also called Aurochs (Land of lost monsters by Ted Oakes, 103)If aurochs where domesticated into modern cattle, why do they seem to be untameable in Job? Probably because Job and the people around him didn't know HOW to do so. Job doesn't seem to be an expert on domesticating wild animals (see Job 1)yet the Leviathan of Job 41 isn't a croc because Job himself can't kill it?

Remember: the Bible is not a science book. Lions are not the strongest animal alive (Proverbs 30:30)Aurochs where domesticated, and Crocs dont breathe fire.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by ringo, posted 04-05-2006 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 04-05-2006 10:55 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 142 of 202 (301383)
04-05-2006 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by arachnophilia
04-05-2006 5:36 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Good thinking Arach :) Ill dig a little more into the source.

Chao :)


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by arachnophilia, posted 04-05-2006 5:36 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by arachnophilia, posted 04-06-2006 1:11 AM LudoRephaim has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18268
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 143 of 202 (301398)
04-05-2006 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by LudoRephaim
04-05-2006 10:12 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:

The source you posted shows that people today can hunt Crocs with spears, but it doesn't say HOW they hunt the crocs.

This is about as much as I could find about how a croc might be killed with spears.

(I dont think they would wade in water or sail in such a small boat if doing so, lest they be EATEN by a 20 foot Croc!)

Well, apparently they do wade in the water and use small boats. Do you think they put up a sign to keep the big ones away?

Are they hunting young Crocs? smaller females?

Again, do you suppose the young and the females frequent a different lake?

Are you sure they can pierce a huge Croc's back?

Who said they had to pierce the back? As long as they can kill it, it ain't much of a "leviathan".

I'd like to see absolute proof that they can do it with spears.

Have a Google around the Internet. Apparently, it's pretty common for "primitive" peoples in crocodile-infested territory to kill them with primitive "stone age" weapons.

Job never gets to add "if I had a few guys" Because God asks if HE, not he and many others, HE could take on a Leviathan.

Did God rule out getting help? The story doesn't seem very impressive if Levathan is only more powerful than a sick old man.

There was plenty of time for a whole bunch of guys to be mentioned to help Job against Leviathan, just as fishhooks, ropes, spears, harpoons and hooks are mentioned as being available in this hypothetical clash between Job and Leviathan (Look closely at Job 41) Yet they never are.

I think it implies pretty clearly that Job could not kill Leviathan with all of the resources at his disposal. Once again, the power of Leviathan would be meaningless if God set up a bunch of rules about how many men Job could have on his team.

God doesn't need anybody to help him take on such beasts, and Job is being asked if he could do the same.

The implication seems to be that all men put together are not as powerful as God. No matter how many men Job could muster, he couldn't do what God can do.

You said that Leviathan was a single creature because it only mentions one....

No. I said that the Bible says specifically that there is only one Leviathan:

quote:
Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.

You say that Leviathan is supernatural....

No. I said that Leviathan was mythical, not supernatural.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-05-2006 10:12 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-05-2006 5:23 PM ringo has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 522 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 144 of 202 (301418)
04-06-2006 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by LudoRephaim
04-05-2006 10:14 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Good thinking Arach :) Ill dig a little more into the source.

yeah. i'd check and see if there's anyone who's written anything about it. i found one bad review (on amazon, written by a customer) but it was because it supported OEC instead of YEC. go figure.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-05-2006 10:14 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 145 of 202 (309467)
05-05-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
04-05-2006 10:55 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Ringo writes:

This is about as much as I could find about how a Croc might be killed with spears

Your source says that the scales or scutes on a Croc's back are so tough that spears and arrows Will Not go through though them sounds similar to how Leviathan is described in Job 41:7 where it asks (sarcastically) if you can fill his skin with Harpoons. And dont quote sources that says that a Croc can be killed with spears to the mouth or underbelly. It's dumb to do so when you remember that the Wild Ox is shown to be untamable in Job 39, yet prehistoric peoples domesticated it and made it what we would call domestic Cattle! It isn't that the Wild Ox is absolutely untameable or that the Croc is unkillable. Its the point that Job couldn't do either task. In his region people might not have known how to tame Aurochs or hunt large Crocs. If he can take on a flesh and blood animal (that other people can and have), how can he take on God.

Ringo writes:

well, apparently they apparently do wade in water and use small boats.

Yeah, and their dumb butts!

Ringo writes:

Did God rule out getting help?

He doesn't rule out equipment to fight the Leviathan, but the emphasis is on Job and Job alone, not him and a bunch of good'ol Boys.

Ringo writes:

No. I said the Bible specifically that there is only one Leviathan.

oh brother....

"Is the Wild Ox willing to serve you? Will he spend the night at your manger?"

"upon Earth there is not his like, who is made without fear" Job 41:33.

See how off that is? If Leviathan in Job 41 is a mythical creature because this verse seems to refer to him in the singular sense, then I guess the Wild Ox has to be figurative, because it alos refers to it in the singular sense! Are Aurochs Mythical??

BTW: what's the difference between "mythical" and "Supernatural"?

This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 05-05-2006 05:27 PM


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 04-05-2006 10:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 05-05-2006 7:01 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 146 of 202 (309468)
05-05-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by arachnophilia
04-06-2006 1:11 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Arachnophilia writes:

Go figure

Indeed.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by arachnophilia, posted 04-06-2006 1:11 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 147 of 202 (309472)
05-05-2006 5:32 PM


This is a pretty foolish argument, but it ultimately depends on how we interpret Job.

I'll leave it at that.


  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18268
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 148 of 202 (309492)
05-05-2006 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by LudoRephaim
05-05-2006 5:23 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:

And dont quote sources that says that a Croc can be killed with spears to the mouth or underbelly.

The whole point of the Leviathan story in Job seems to be that Leviathan can not be killed by "mere men". It's just silly to talk about the scales on a croc's back and ignore the soft underbelly.

quote:
Job 41:7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons?

His skin includes his belly.

He doesn't rule out equipment to fight the Leviathan, but the emphasis is on Job and Job alone, not him and a bunch of good'ol Boys.

There is no such emphasis at all. If God had said to Job, "Canst thou shingle the mighty roof?", Job would have gathered up his buddies and bought some beer (and shingles) and got the job done. Same with Leviathan.

If Leviathan in Job 41 is a mythical creature because this verse seems to refer to him in the singular sense....

Not "singular sense":

quote:
Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.

It says specifically that there is only one Leviathan.

... then I guess the Wild Ox has to be figurative, because it alos refers to it in the singular sense! Are Aurochs Mythical??

No. The wild ox is never said to be only one.

BTW: what's the difference between "mythical" and "Supernatural"?

"Supernatural" is something that we can't detect with our senses or understand with our intellect - e.g. God. "Mythical" is something that is not real, but is part of a cultural tradition - e.g. unicorns or dragons. (Yes, I know you think unicorns and dragons are real. :) )

Mythical creatures may or may not have supernatural powers.

Leviathan is a myth. There is an element of the supernatual about him, and his description may have been based on one or more real animals. But making him a real animal destroys the impact of the story.

Edit: ficksed spelling.

This message has been edited by Ringo, 2006-05-05 05:04 PM


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-05-2006 5:23 PM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 522 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 149 of 202 (309541)
05-05-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ringo
05-05-2006 7:01 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
The whole point of the Leviathan story in Job seems to be that Leviathan can not be killed by "mere men". It's just silly to talk about the scales on a croc's back and ignore the soft underbell

It says specifically that there is only one Leviathan.

to be fair, i think you're being a little over-literal here.

also, it's speaking consistently in the singular, as if one individual represents a species. god is speaking about his creations, when he created them.

now, tradition says that god only made two leviathanim, and he killed one of them at the creation of the world. the other one, cursed to live his life in solitude without a mate, is the leviathan of job.

Yes, I know you think unicorns and dragons are real

well, that's the idea of this debate, i think. leviathan IS a dragon.


אָרַח

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Replies to this message:
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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 150 of 202 (309555)
05-06-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Gathering INFO
02-27-2005 5:59 AM


Moves his tail like a cedar? I admit it has been a while since I went to my local zoo, but hippos or elephants don't have a tail anywhere near that description. As far as a crocodile, It could be, but interesting never the less.

True, but ever seen an elephant's penis? It's HUGE. (My niece on a visit to the zoo utters “why does that elephant have six legs?”... Wasn’t sure how to explain that one) Now I cant speak for the hippo. But if it has an endowment of equal proportions I can only imagine an ancient commentator being impressed enough to make some comment to it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Gathering INFO, posted 02-27-2005 5:59 AM Gathering INFO has not yet responded

  
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