Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8898 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-25-2019 9:38 AM
23 online now:
AZPaul3, Diomedes, JonF, kjsimons, PaulK, PurpleYouko, Tangle, vimesey (8 members, 15 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,633 Year: 3,670/19,786 Month: 665/1,087 Week: 34/221 Day: 5/29 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
910111213
14
Author Topic:   Bible Cryptids/Dinosaurs?
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 196 of 202 (387737)
03-02-2007 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by ringo
06-10-2006 6:31 PM


Ringo writes:

bye bye croc. Hello Leviathan :D

nope. Although I wont be able to continue this debate, i still have to bring up some things.

1. Your sources, as well as mine, showed that a Crocodile's back is impervious to spears and other primitive weapons.
2. Considering the mythical "ice Bear", I showed that mythical, seemingly unkillable monsters could be based on common animals that are killed often today, and even back in prmitive times.
3. I showed that Biblical authors could be mistaken in observations of known animals (Ostritch), and therefore could be mistaken about Leviathan being a fire-breather (whatever it may be, Croc or cryptid).
4. That the Leviathan of Job is different from the mythical multiheaded Leviathan, due to it only having one head (Job 41:2: Can you put a cord through his nose or piece his Jaw with a hook? 41:7: Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears? compare to Psalm 74:14: "it was You who crushed the Heads of Leviathan; and gave him as food to the creatures of the Desert". compare to mythical Lotan, that was multi-headed.

And despite the debate, Leviathan's physical strength is shown to be a factor in his seemingly "unkillability"

"If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again!" Job 41:8.

Now to be fair, the "Leviathan" of Job 41 may not have been a crocodile but some entirely unknown huge reptile that has either gone extinct or undiscovered (a cryptid). And despite not being the multi-headed leviathan, it is possible that Leviathan may be some supernatural critter; the seemingly invincibility of Leviathan is kind of similar to the invincibility of Tiamat, Dragon of Babylonian Mythology (Carol Rose "Giants,Monsters & Dragons" page 360).

But of course Crocodiles where not always called "Crocodiles" (according to Herodotus, Crocodiles where called "Champsae" by the egyptians, and "Crocodile" by the Ionians (and, to be fair, describes both their invincible back, being tamed, and hunted and eaten on the same page (123 of Penguin classics version of Herodotus "the histories"). Just as it is used to say "whales" today, it caould have been used to say "Crocodiles" back then. But the whole debate is tentative.

I dont have any time to fully debate this, but a simple conversation would be okay off and on. Plus im busy and sickly.

BTW: nice new avatar image! Sharon Stone is HOT!

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by ringo, posted 06-10-2006 6:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 03-02-2007 1:14 PM LudoRephaim has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16241
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 197 of 202 (387751)
03-02-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by LudoRephaim
03-02-2007 11:07 AM


LudoRephaim writes:

1. Your sources, as well as mine, showed that a Crocodile's back is impervious to spears and other primitive weapons.

No. My sources showed that crocodiles are routinely hunted by "primitive" people with primitive weapons.

2. Considering the mythical "ice Bear", I showed that mythical, seemingly unkillable monsters could be based on common animals that are killed often today, and even back in prmitive times.

I never said that the descriptions of Leviathan were not based on what was known about existing animals. I said that Leviathan was not an existing animal. Don't move the goalposts.

3. I showed that Biblical authors could be mistaken in observations of known animals (Ostritch), and therefore could be mistaken about Leviathan being a fire-breather (whatever it may be, Croc or cryptid).

And I never said that the descriptions of Leviathan were not based on what was known about existing animals. Nor did I deny that those descriptions could have been mistaken or exaggerated. Don't move the goalposts.

4. That the Leviathan of Job is different from the mythical multiheaded Leviathan, due to it only having one head....

"Leviathan" was a generic term for "big scary monster". The fact that it is described in different ways makes it less likely that it was a real animal. Mythical creatures - giants, ogres, dragons, etc. - were described in different ways because there were no eyewitnesses.

Now to be fair, the "Leviathan" of Job 41 may not have been a crocodile but some entirely unknown huge reptile that has either gone extinct or undiscovered (a cryptid).

If it was "entirely unknown", where did the descriptions come from? How do you tell the difference between an entirely unknown creature and an entirely non-existant one?

And despite not being the multi-headed leviathan, it is possible that Leviathan may be some supernatural critter;

"Supernatural" and "mythical" mean pretty much the same thing in this context.

... the seemingly invincibility of Leviathan is kind of similar to the invincibility of Tiamat, Dragon of Babylonian Mythology (Carol Rose "Giants,Monsters & Dragons" page 360).

That's what I've been saying: the key word is "mythology". The story has significance beyond any ordinary hide-and-bones "real" creature.

I dont have any time to fully debate this, but a simple conversation would be okay off and on. Plus im busy and sickly.

No problem. I'll be here whenever you drop by and there's still a hundred posts left in this (mythical) puppy. :) Take care of the sicklies.

BTW: nice new avatar image! Sharon Stone is HOT!

Just don't mistake my new prettier-than-thou image for a kinder, gentler Ringo. I'm still as tough and mean as ever. ;)


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-02-2007 11:07 AM LudoRephaim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-27-2007 7:38 PM ringo has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16086
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 198 of 202 (387822)
03-02-2007 8:42 PM


No, no, you're both wrong ...
Let a YEC explain.

Originally from an edumucational site for children.

* bangs head against desk *


Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by arachnophilia, posted 03-03-2007 12:29 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 57 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 199 of 202 (387834)
03-03-2007 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Dr Adequate
03-02-2007 8:42 PM


Re: No, no, you're both wrong ...
oy, they're not even good drawings.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-02-2007 8:42 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-27-2007 7:44 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 200 of 202 (402521)
05-27-2007 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by ringo
03-02-2007 1:14 PM


no.

actually, quite yes. looky herez;

"The skin of the Crocodile is so hard and closely set with scales, that it is impenetrable"

http://www.bibleinsong.com/Song_Pages/Job/Job41/Job41.htm

(notice also about the weak spot on a croc's neck, useful for killing one. being fair)

and...

"The hard scales made it's back impossible to penetrate, especially if the creature was old..."
"These reptiles have hard scales (called scutes) under the skin on their backs. arrows and spears will not go through these scales"

http://Pelotes.jea.com/NativeAmerican/LeMoyne/leMoyne.htm

now compare to one of my sources:

"It (croc)has a hide tough enough to repel harpoons and spears" (Parenthesis, "croc" word mine) Ralph O. Muncaster's "Dinosaurs and the Bible", page 37.

See also Herodotus.

Mythical creatures-giants, ogres, Dragons, etc- were described in different ways because there where no eyewitnesses

on the ogres and giants: you dont watch much wrestling and football, do you? Basketball? Have a guiness world record book?

You have heared of the Alton Giant, aka the world's tallest man, Robert Wadlow, who was about 8 feet 11 inches tall (see any Guiness book of world records, also Norris Mcwhirter's "Book of Historical records", page 108)? What about the late pro wrestler, Andre the GIANT? He was around 7 foot, 500+ lbs (250 kilos). Or some other wrestlers of that size, such as the Great Khali (7 feet 3 inches tall, 420 lbs, bodybuilder physique) or the Big Show (7 feet, 500 lbs)? If you want some net links to read more, let me know.

If it was entirely unknown, where did the descriptions come from?

My bad: I meant unknown to modern knowledge and science, not unknown to Job and his ancient society. Pandas were not known about by western civilization until very recently, yet the Chinese had known about them for generations.

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by ringo, posted 03-02-2007 1:14 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 05-27-2007 11:20 PM LudoRephaim has not yet responded

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 3163 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 201 of 202 (402524)
05-27-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by arachnophilia
03-03-2007 12:29 AM


Re: No, no, you're both wrong ...
also very outdated :(


"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by arachnophilia, posted 03-03-2007 12:29 AM arachnophilia has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16241
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 202 of 202 (402554)
05-27-2007 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by LudoRephaim
05-27-2007 7:38 PM


Ludo Rephaim writes:

"The skin of the Crocodile is so hard and closely set with scales, that it is impenetrable"

(notice also about the weak spot on a croc's neck, useful for killing one. being fair)

If you can penetrate it anywhere and kill it, the "impenetrable" parts are irrelevant. :rolleyes:


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-27-2007 7:38 PM LudoRephaim has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
910111213
14
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019