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Author Topic:   Is there such a thing as chance?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 91 of 175 (178489)
01-19-2005 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by RAZD
01-18-2005 8:54 PM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
So then your not pro-abortion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by RAZD, posted 01-18-2005 8:54 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by RAZD, posted 01-19-2005 7:22 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 100 by nator, posted 01-20-2005 7:49 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 92 of 175 (178494)
01-19-2005 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by RAZD
01-18-2005 10:41 PM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
Yea, or maybe God, angels, and demons are poking there little heads in and out of our demension.
Possible. The probability of any such visitation being in accordance with only one view that has (supposedly anyway) documented such behavior is low. The reality could be something else all together, as any earlier such visitation could have been terribly misinterpreted by a primitive worldview. I have said before on other forums that I think all religions are equally valid.
Yes, I believe that, to an extent, all religions are valid. Who's to say that it isn't God?
When Jesus says no-one gets to the father except by me, what does that mean specifically? Is he waiting there at the gates? Do we have to act like him, regardless our beliefs?
But to deny God to me would be wrong.
I believe everything was created for his glory, including all religions. I refuse to judge other religions, except for myself.
The bible speaks of portals, and transportations and such.
Also speaks of transformations. I believe I have been transformed, and born again. I am not exactly the same person I was before, I have been tweaked a little, for the better. Anything short of love for others is a deception.
Nope, I am saying that it may be determined or it may be random, but because we can’t tell which is correct, we ... well ... just can’t tell which is correct.
I agree, we can't tell which is correct. But it urks me to think that something could be random, without having a conscience. (haha, look at that word, con-science). The only way I could accept it is if it was designed to be random, I guess. Ok my head is going to explode.
What god(s) do atheists worship? What god(s) do clinical idiots worship? Are they less than human? If all creation worships god, then it does so by mere existence and none of it is any more special than the rest.
Choosing not to worship, ahhh. There in lies the truth. Choosing not to believe, also truth. Does truth exist?
Which the alcohol or the sin? If a father shoots himself in the foot while thinking of robbing a store is the child going to be born with a hole in {his\hers}? Will they also shoot themselves in the foot?
Please try to understand how it works.
Jesus said, inorder to be forgiven, you must forgive. You can start with yourself.
If a father shoots himself in the foot, and he never forgives himself, he will carry that burden for the rest of his life, and that burden will go over to his children. Even if he doesn't raise then (then the burden will be worse, not having your natural father).
When we don't forgive, we only hurt ourselves. We lock ourselves inside a prison. There is such great freedom in forgivness.
When we do decide to forgive, especially in the name of Jesus, a new freedom is placed in your soul/spirit, and you are free. So will be the generations that follow you.
It's not the alcohol, but his decsion to abuse it, which is actually the root cause of the sin.
I have a high degree of confidence that other life will be found. Whether it will be intelligent or in comprehensible or even contemporaneous is up for grabs. The discovery of large organic compound precursors in deep space (far enough away to have existed before life on earth) and circling other stars gives me this confidence. I think one of the first thing formed in space from cooling gas and left over elements of exploded stars would be billions of molecules from the easier to combine elements ... H ... C ... O ... N ... etc.
Since I am in to space so much, I hope for the same thing. How this correlates to God and the bible, I am just not sure. Maybe Jesus will come before we actually find anything. Maybe we won't find anything. Maybe we will. Doesn't change the way I feel about God.
The universe is either full of life, or we are the only ones here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by RAZD, posted 01-18-2005 10:41 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by RAZD, posted 01-19-2005 11:03 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 93 of 175 (178496)
01-19-2005 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Wounded King
01-19-2005 4:18 AM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
Yes, by the same reasons I just posted in message 92
Please try to understand how it works.
Jesus said, inorder to be forgiven, you must forgive. You can start with yourself.
If a father shoots himself in the foot, and he never forgives himself, he will carry that burden for the rest of his life, and that burden will go over to his children. Even if he doesn't raise then (then the burden will be worse, not having your natural father).
When we don't forgive, we only hurt ourselves. We lock ourselves inside a prison. There is such great freedom in forgivness.
When we do decide to forgive, especially in the name of Jesus, a new freedom is placed in your soul/spirit, and you are free. So will be the generations that follow you.
It's not the alcohol, but his decsion to abuse it, which is actually the root cause of the sin.
Just ask a psychologist, they can explain how it works too.
The biggest problem we have is the layers of deception, and it makes it hard for us to see. Thats exactly what the devil has been building up all these thousands of years.
I would love for you to try something. Try looking at things from a spiritual perspective. When someone talks to you, listen to the words, but more important listen to what their spirit is saying. try looking at everything from a spiritual perspective of good vs. evil, and your eyes might open up a little. We live our lives in the flesh, and we block out the spiritual.
I found that in my life living in the flesh leaves a lot of unanswered questions. I can see things much clearer now that I look at the spiritual, and it's the spiritual according to God, not some tara card reader.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Wounded King, posted 01-19-2005 4:18 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Wounded King, posted 01-19-2005 10:43 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 94 of 175 (178505)
01-19-2005 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by nator
01-18-2005 5:08 PM


Re: Chances
Backing off when one is told is a simple courtesy. I do not engage in circular discussion. It means I have decided that 'things' are not going anywhere 'cept round and round.
You call what you do debate. I call it cross examination and badgering.
DA to Coroner:
When did you realize that the body you were examining is dead?
Coroner to DA:
All the bodies I examine are dead.
DA to Coroner:
So you did determine that the body to be examined is actually dead?
Coroner to DA:
Every body I'm prepared to examine is dead.
DA to Coroner:
Did the body you were ready to examine come to you this way?
Coroner to DA:
The dead body that comes for examination is dead when it gets here.
DA to Coroner:
I see! So you did determine that the body, which is now ready to be examined, is dead?
Coroner to DA:
All the bodies I examine are dead.
DA to Judge:
Your Honor, I believe this witness is hostile and in contempt of court.
Judge to DA:
The witness has answered your question repeatedly. The bodies he examines are dead when they arrive.
DA to Judge:
Uh......
You get to play the part of the DA.
I hope you think about this. It is meant to tell you something, and so without rancor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by nator, posted 01-18-2005 5:08 PM nator has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 95 of 175 (178516)
01-19-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by riVeRraT
01-19-2005 9:40 AM


Environment, not 'sin'.
Dear riVeRrat,
As an answer to my question this leaves a lot to be desired. As you reveal so eloquently by suggesting that I 'ask a psychologist', you aren't really talking about 'sin' at all. Or rather what you choose to call 'sin' is something others would identify as a perfectly natural set of social and pychological phenomena, presumably because they are blinded by the Devil's deceptions.
TTFN,
WK
P.S. I think you mean Tarot card reader

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by riVeRraT, posted 01-19-2005 9:40 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by riVeRraT, posted 01-19-2005 4:23 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 96 of 175 (178638)
01-19-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Wounded King
01-19-2005 10:43 AM


Re: Environment, not 'sin'.
Right, the point being that it exists. Doesn't matter what you label it as. It is fact that problems carry down through the generations. If we dwell deeper into it, we find that even the stuff we do ourselves, and against our planet, the whole world suffers from it.
W IMO we don't need psychologists to tell us that. It was indicated to us 2000 years ago. The thing I find most amazing is how some people can be cured of these problems in the snap of a finger through God, yet psychologists take years to sort things out. I am one of those people.
What happened to me amoung other things? Well I tell you. I was never able to play music in front of people for the last 34 years. I would get to nervous. My church asked me to play, so I decided to give it another try. Not to drag the story out and get into all the little details, but in the blink of an eye my fear was gone when I asked God to take it away, because I would now be playing for his purpose.
BTW, I still get nervous if I am not playing for God. Now I have tried to rationalize this in my head. I even thought I made this all up in my own head by imagining that I was playing for a higher purpose. But thats not it. I've been over it a thousand times. I am either crazy, or there is a God.
Next what happened is that for my whole life I wanted to sing and play. First off, I have no voice, I can hear that I sing off-key. Second it is so difficult to sing and play at the same time. Well I now do it, in front of 200 people every Sunday, and its for the Lord.
So, I don't think that being crazy can make you smarter, and sing better.
This is my own personal stuff, and you will analize it and break it down so that it doesn't mean anything. But thats fine.
If you want to start correcting each other with spelling thats fine too, I'm not sure what you meant when you said "pychological phenomena" but maybe you meant "physiological phenomena".
Either way, I do not judge people by how they spell, because I am the worst at it. I could take the time and spell check everything, but time is limited, and I just want to get my point across.
*edit*
see, edited for spelling, or typing error, whatever.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 01-19-2005 16:24 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Wounded King, posted 01-19-2005 10:43 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 01-20-2005 7:59 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 97 of 175 (178724)
01-19-2005 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by riVeRraT
01-19-2005 8:57 AM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
If I was anti-abortion then I would also have to give up eating anything. If that is not a viable solution then one must draw a line between what is {valuable to me} life and what is {wonderful but ... } life. Every person makes their own judgment call on that (morality is subjuctive?).
The position I have arrived at in my evaluation is on another thread, and it involves a number of legal arguments. We can take up the issue there:
http://EvC Forum: Points on abortion and the crutch of supporters -->EvC Forum: Points on abortion and the crutch of supporters
It got a POTM at the time. and I am pretty happy with what is posted, even though I have changed the wording somewhat in other places (such as my website).
As there are other forums to discuss this, it should be considered off {topic\limits} here.
k?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by riVeRraT, posted 01-19-2005 8:57 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by riVeRraT, posted 01-19-2005 7:45 PM RAZD has not replied
 Message 160 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 5:57 AM RAZD has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 98 of 175 (178732)
01-19-2005 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by RAZD
01-19-2005 7:22 PM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by RAZD, posted 01-19-2005 7:22 PM RAZD has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 99 of 175 (178782)
01-19-2005 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by riVeRraT
01-19-2005 9:30 AM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
riVeRraT writes:
I agree, we can't tell which is correct. But it urks me to think that something could be random, without having a conscience. ... The only way I could accept it is if it was designed to be random, I guess. Ok my head is going to explode.
Careful about those quantum moments now. If you feel it was necessary to design everything for an omniscient predetermined end, then you are kind of forced in that (predetermined) direction. On the other hand if you feel the design was intentionally to develop something that had never been before and couldn’t even be contemplated by an omniscient mind then you are forced to include randomness.
Please try to understand how it works. ... It's not the alcohol, but his decsion to abuse it, which is actually the root cause of the sin.
It is almost humorous to read these (not just yours) arguments on "sin" -- they are so illogical. At what point is the decision to abuse made? The first drink? I know many people that have one drink a night. The third? I also know some people that once they have one drink they cannot stop until they have passed out — it is genetic, not choice. Is the gene the carrier of the sin of the father? LOL that is why the American Indian was genetically predisposed to the alcoholic response because of the generations of abuse of alcohol before the Whiteman came. Sorry that doesn’t wash.
Since I am in to space so much, I hope for the same thing. How this correlates to God and the bible, I am just not sure.
The only logical answer is that we don’t know yet, we will find out when it happens.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by riVeRraT, posted 01-19-2005 9:30 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by riVeRraT, posted 01-20-2005 8:09 AM RAZD has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 175 (178858)
01-20-2005 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by riVeRraT
01-19-2005 8:57 AM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
quote:
So then your not pro-abortion?
Nobody is "pro"-abortion.
We are pro-"safe and legal" abortion.
Nobody thinks abortion is a fabulous, positive thing, but it is a necessary thing.
On the other hand there are plenty of people (often the same people who want to make all abortion illegal) who are, actually pro-death penalty.
...in that they do think that the execution of citizens by the state is a positive, fabulous thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by riVeRraT, posted 01-19-2005 8:57 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by riVeRraT, posted 01-20-2005 8:17 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 175 (178860)
01-20-2005 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by riVeRraT
01-19-2005 4:23 PM


Re: Environment, not 'sin'.
quote:
The thing I find most amazing is how some people can be cured of these problems in the snap of a finger through God, yet psychologists take years to sort things out. I am one of those people.
What happened to me amoung other things? Well I tell you. I was never able to play music in front of people for the last 34 years. I would get to nervous. My church asked me to play, so I decided to give it another try. Not to drag the story out and get into all the little details, but in the blink of an eye my fear was gone when I asked God to take it away, because I would now be playing for his purpose.
BTW, I still get nervous if I am not playing for God. Now I have tried to rationalize this in my head. I even thought I made this all up in my own head by imagining that I was playing for a higher purpose. But thats not it. I've been over it a thousand times. I am either crazy, or there is a God.
Or, you manage to psych yourself out when you play at church, because you feel totally safe, confident, and accepted there, but you don't when you play elsewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by riVeRraT, posted 01-19-2005 4:23 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by riVeRraT, posted 01-20-2005 8:23 AM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 102 of 175 (178864)
01-20-2005 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by RAZD
01-19-2005 11:03 PM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
If you feel it was necessary to design everything for an omniscient predetermined end, then you are kind of forced in that (predetermined) direction.
Everything except our free will.
Or the free will of any being.
It is almost humorous to read these (not just yours) arguments on "sin" -- they are so illogical. At what point is the decision to abuse made? The first drink?
I drink alcohol. I have a glass of wine once or twice a month. It is now very clear to me that before when I used to drink a little more, say like 3-4 glasses every third night (or there abouts) that I was abusing my body. I think everyone knows inside them when it is abuse and when it is not. There is no set rule according scripture.
The bible only advices that it is better to get drunk on the spirit, than alcohol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by RAZD, posted 01-19-2005 11:03 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-20-2005 11:57 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 108 by RAZD, posted 01-20-2005 10:38 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 103 of 175 (178867)
01-20-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by nator
01-20-2005 7:49 AM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
Yes, I agree with you.
I was for the death penalty, but now after being saved, I have second thoughts about that. We are not to kill one another.
I believe if we had enough faith that God would take care of it. But that is unlikely to happen as a group effort now.
I am for abortion if it is to save the life of the mother, or for any good medical reason. But not just for choice, not because you just don't feel like having this baby.
I am pro choice, chose not to screw around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 01-20-2005 7:49 AM nator has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 104 of 175 (178869)
01-20-2005 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by nator
01-20-2005 7:59 AM


Re: Environment, not 'sin'.
I'm telling you, I self analized it a thousand times. Thats not it.
The first time Iplayed there, I had only been going there for about a month and a half. I really didn't know these people.
When I started my song, which BTW was an old hymn that I could not play correctly after 2 weeks of practice, I got that nervous feeling. I get it so bad that my kidneys actually start to bother me, and my hands lock up, or I just blank and forget the song. But about 5 seconds into the song, it just disappeared, in a snap, and I played the song perfectly, and even improvised on it for the second go around, something I was unable to do for the 2 weeks of practice.
It was a special moment for sure, and now I don't even see the people sitting there at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 01-20-2005 7:59 AM nator has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 105 of 175 (178917)
01-20-2005 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by riVeRraT
01-20-2005 8:09 AM


Re: chance and assumption and random chaos
But then, you know, someone will come along and say that Christ turned water into wine after the folks at the wedding party had well-drunk.
Then whaddaya gonna say? It's ok with him when people get schnuckered out of their mind?
quote:
There is no set rule according scripture.
The bible only advices that it is better to get drunk on the spirit, than alcohol.
The bible says no to alcohol altogether, so what's up with this wine at the wedding stuff?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by riVeRraT, posted 01-20-2005 8:09 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by riVeRraT, posted 01-20-2005 7:50 PM PecosGeorge has replied

  
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