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Author
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Topic: The "Axioms" Of Nature
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 786 Joined: 12-16-2007
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Message 174 of 297 (486895)
10-25-2008 11:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 168 by onifre
10-25-2008 10:40 AM
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onifre writes: Because, in a quantum state, quantum fluctuations defy BOTH reality and reason. If it was a quantum state singularity that the universe expanded from, that quantum state would have defied reality and reason by causing particles to come in and out of existance from basically nothingness. I belive this is incorrect. The vacuum of space is not nothingness, that's what makes the idea of quantum fluctuation giving rise to a universe, hint at a deeper level of existence(a pool of space/vacuum that gives birth to universes like ours). This is immaterial to your debate so take it just as a remark.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein "Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by onifre, posted 10-25-2008 10:40 AM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 176 by onifre, posted 10-25-2008 11:34 AM | | Agobot has replied |
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 786 Joined: 12-16-2007
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Message 175 of 297 (486896)
10-25-2008 11:25 AM
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What is the whole drama about(dictionaries, definitions, ...)? Or should i say party? I am reading these 12 pages and i still can't pin down the topic you're debating. I even get the feeling some of the participants don't know what they are arguing against. Edited by Agobot, : No reason given. Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein "Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 786 Joined: 12-16-2007
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Message 177 of 297 (486900)
10-25-2008 11:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 176 by onifre
10-25-2008 11:34 AM
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onifre writes: It basically is, not absolute-zero of course but how would you define it? I'd say is basically nothingness. At least as close to it as we can get. Nothingness would be what was there before the Big Bang. We have no way to know if nothingness can create quantum fluctuation. If we have to speculate about a quantum fluctuation giving rise to a universe we have to adopt the scenario of another deeper pool of vacuum of space, or we have to imagine that quantum fluctuations are possible in nothingness. Anyway, what's the argument about in a sentence?
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein "Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 176 by onifre, posted 10-25-2008 11:34 AM | | onifre has not replied |
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 786 Joined: 12-16-2007
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Re: Re:Axiom
Straggler writes: Whatever you consider to be an "axiom" now is only ever one discovery away from being overturned. Tentative conclusions of the tested hypothesised scientific sort are the best we can ever hope for. Most generalisations are wrong IMO and so is your understanding that all axioms may one day be overturned. I find your above statement to be too bold and would like to know what you think of: 2+2=4 Is this "tentative conclusion", which happens to be an axiom, ever going to change? If so, How? Sorry if i have misunderstood your statement, i have big troubles understaning your debate. This thread is by far the biggest confusion i've seen here on EvC, but true axioms do exist, otherwise the universe wouldn't be here(although from certain perspective i seem to contradict my long-held understanding of reality with that statement  ). Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein "Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 196 by Straggler, posted 10-27-2008 6:41 AM | | Straggler has replied |
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 786 Joined: 12-16-2007
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Message 220 of 297 (487101)
10-27-2008 5:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 219 by Percy
10-27-2008 4:24 PM
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Re: Still No Axioms?
Percy writes: It is your position that axioms of nature exist, and so you've been asked to provide examples. But instead of providing examples of such axioms you instead ask us for them, seemingly forgetting that it is our position that no such axioms of nature exist. And you are all wrong. Axioms exist in nature, it's just that creationists don't put up a good fight. At all. Here is one axiom of nature: LIFE ENDS IN DEATH Now i challenge everyone and anyone of your camp to prove me wrong with an example from all earth's history that overturns this axiom. Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein "Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 219 by Percy, posted 10-27-2008 4:24 PM | | Percy has not replied |
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 786 Joined: 12-16-2007
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Message 222 of 297 (487109)
10-27-2008 6:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 221 by NosyNed
10-27-2008 5:47 PM
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Re: An axiom example
NosyNed writes: But you seem to misunderstand, still, what an axiom is. It isn't an axiom if it is proven true (or not proven false). I thought an axiom was a self-evident truth.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein "Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 221 by NosyNed, posted 10-27-2008 5:47 PM | | NosyNed has not replied |
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Agobot
Member (Idle past 5548 days) Posts: 786 Joined: 12-16-2007
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Message 225 of 297 (487114)
10-27-2008 6:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 224 by Blue Jay
10-27-2008 6:07 PM
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Re: An axiom example
Bluejay writes: But, the phrase "self-evident" stands as antithesis to "proven," so, things that are proven are not self-evident. {AbE: So, an axiom is something that you know to be true without having to prove it.} Hi Bluejay, I never felt the need to prove that life always ends in death, I took as an axiomatic truth. I can't imagine anyone trying to do a research or a probe whether life always ends in death. But i don't want to take part in this silly debate, i still don't see the point of this thread, so this will be my last post in it.
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind" - A.Einstein "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - This is a somewhat new kind of religion" - Albert Einstein "Matter is nothing but the harmonies created by this vibrating string..The laws of physics can be compared to the laws of harmony allowed on the string. The universe itself, composed of countless vibrating strings, would then be comparable to a symphony." - Michio Kaku
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 224 by Blue Jay, posted 10-27-2008 6:07 PM | | Blue Jay has not replied |
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