Evolution is a Religious Issue

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We believe its an accurate model of the development of life on Earth. And we don't need faith for this position, because we have evidence, instead.

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Well, that's just ridiculous. Evolution is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY based on faith. You have NO PROOF whatsoever of evolution, that is true vertical evolution or macro-evolution. Micro-evolution, however, is true, but that in no way explains how the universe got here. Dogs reproduce dogs, cats reproduce cats, etc... dogs do NOT reproduce cats. And, it should really not be called evolution. It should be called Bible(oh you just hate that don't ya) which says that "each would produce after its/his kind". It's simple.What's your proof of true vertical evolution? Show me a man evolve from an ape, star evolve from hydrogen, life evolve from chemicals or anything of the sort? You can't. You have no proof. In fact, we see just the opposite: stars explode, comets and meteriorites disintegrate, the biosphere deteriorates and EVERYTHING eventually dies which PROVES the Second Law of Thermodynamics or the the Law of Increasing Entropy in Complexity. So nothing has EVER evolved into higher complexity because of this Law. My wife doesn't get younger and prettier, my car doesn't get better over time, my clothes don't evolve into something better and better.....they DETIORORATE. Do you have a freezer at home? Why? Just leave the filet mignons out for a few days so they will EVOLVE and get better and better right? Didn't think so..... The theory of evolution(macro) is DUMB and DANGEROUS and has NO PROOF whatsoever. You accept it on faith.

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"Faith" is when you believe without evidence, like having faith in the existence of God or His authorship of the Bible. Evolutionists have evidence for evolution, which is why they accept it; hence they do not have faith in the theory.

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That is NOT true. Show me a man evolve from an ape or star evolve from a hydrogen let's see you reproduce it. That's science! I can SHOW you stars explode, people die, animals go extinct everyday in this world. That's science...it's provable, observable and testable.Furthermore, explain to me how nothing plus nothing equals everything when it doesn't even equal 1? That's not science, that's your imagination. If it came from nothing how can something come from nothing? Isn't that faith?How did the bombadier beetle evolve? How did the woodpecker evolve? What are the transitional forms for these creatures? In fact, where are any transitional forms for any species? There should be billions of them! And, there aren't any. You give me facts not lies like the Nebraska man.And, what Bible are you referring to? Be specific. Because whoever wrote the AV1611 is the God (Jesus Christ) of Mathematics. And, that's simple. There are 48 prophecies about a specific man before He even shows up on earth and they are given from 400 years to 1,000 years prior. And, all 48 come to pass literally. Do you know what the odds of that are? How about 1 X 10 to the 150th power. There is not enough room in this univers for that many protons! So, that's impossible. There isn't a man or COMPUTER in existence today that could predict that.

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No faith is needed in science.

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What's obvious is that evolutionists need to go back to the beginning and explain how the universe got here. Can you do that? And, don't waste my time with the Big Bang Theory. That's how it's gonna end not how it started. Where did the hydrogen come from then to start this Big Bang? How did the hydrogen get here (law of causality)? How can an explosion create anything but chaos? Are you saying a gigantic explosion will not kill? Big Bang Theory is just too funny for words!So, how did the planets, sun, moon, stars, house, wife, mom, dad, car, cat, yard get here? There are ONLY 4 possibilities.1. The Universe got here accidentally.2. The Universe got here supernaturally.3. The Universe has always been here.4. It's not here.There aren't any other possibilities. Which one do you choose?Quotes from evolutionists:
1.) Dr. Theodosius Dobzhansky was alive he said, "The occurrence of the evolution of life in the history of the earth is established about as well as events not witnessed by human observers can be." 1 Quoted in "Evolution: The Challenge of the Fossil Record" by Dr. Duane T. Gish, Creation-Life Publishers, El Cajon, CA, USA, 1991, p 11. His quote is from original quote found in "Science", T. Dobzhansky, 127:1091 (1958).2.) The famous evolutionist, George Gaylord Simpson, said, "It is inherent in any definition of science that statements that cannot be checked by observation are not really about anything . . . or at the very least, they are not science." 2 Quoted in "Evolution: The Challenge of the Fossil Record" , by Dr. DuaneT. Gish, Creation-Life Publishers, El Cajon, CA, USA, 1991, p. 12. His quote is from original quote found in "American Science", R.B. Goldschmidt, 40:84, (1952).3.) Even Dobzhansky, as quoted earlier, who is totally committed to faith in evolution has said, "Evolution has not been witnessed by human observers." 3 Quoted in "Evolution: The Challenge of the Fossil Record", by Dr. Duane T. Gish, Creation-Life Publishers, El Cajon, CA, USA, 1991, p. 13.4.) Another rabid evolutionist, Richard B. Goldschmidt said, "It is true that nobody has thus far produced a new species or genus, etc., by macromutation. It is equally true that nobody has produced even a species by the selection of micromutations." 4 Ibid. p. 13.5.) The very item that the evolutionist claims the Creationist cannot prove, is also the item that proves evolution cannot ever be a proven fact! That item is: To be a scientific fact it must be demonstrated! Evolution cannot possibly qualify as a scientific fact. This is admitted by Dobzhansky when he says,"These evolutionary happenings are unique, unrepeatable, and irreversible. It is impossible to turn a land vertebrate into a fish as it is to effect the reverse transformation. The applicability of the experimental method to the study of such unique historical processes is severely restricted [ Personal note: I'll say! A real understatement!] before all else by the time intervals involved, which far exceed the lifetime of any human experimenter. And yet it is just such impossibility that is demanded by anti-evolutionists when they ask for 'proofs' of evolution which they would magnanim- ously accept as satisfactory." 5 Ibid. p. 14.6.) Matthews, a British biologist and evolutionist, in his introduction to a 1971 publication of Darwin's "Origin of Species", says,"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproven theory - is it then a science of faith? Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation - both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof." 6 Quoted in "Evolution: The Challenge of the Fossil Record", by Dr. Duane T. Gish, Creation-Life Publishers, El Cajon, CA, USA, 1991, p. 15.7.) Many famous scientists are now openly expressing their doubts concerning evolution. "Dr. G. A. Kerkut, Professor of Physiology and Biochemistry, University of Southampton, England, is one of the Professors who has questioned the old Neodarwinian transformism. Professor Kerkut writes:'The attempt to explain all living forms in terms of an evolution from a unique source, though a brave and valid attempt, is one that is premature and one that is not satisfactorily supported by present-day evidence.'" 7 "The Natural Sciences Know Nothing of Evolution", by A. E. Wilder-Smith, Master Books, A Division of CLP Publishers, San Diego, CA, USA, 1981, p. viii.8.) Creationist: Scott M. Huse B.S., M.S., M.R.E., Th.D., and Ph.D. in his book "The Collapse of Evolution" has this to say,"The irony of this whole situation is that the very concept of organic evolution is completely absurd and impossible. It is ab- solutely astonishing that an idea which is so devoid of any legit- imate scientific evidence could have attained a position of such prestige in the name of science." 8 Scott M. Huse, "The Collapse of Evolution", Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, USA, 1991, p. 2 of preface.This message has been edited by Jman267, 04-25-2005 06:58 PM

"You don't keep up with science writing much, do you? Neither paleontology or astronomy, huh? No Toumai, or Lucy, or protostars in the Orion Molecular Cloud? If you'd read up on these, you might not be asking for things that are already very well shown indeed. Look around the topics here just a bit - you might avoid making yourself look silly."The only one who looks silly is you. Science writing? ROFL, you believe someone because they call it "science". And, what is science writing anyways? That's not proof of anything. First why can't you answer the questions? Secondly, why attack the poster? Because you can't answer the question?I don't need a Bible to defeat you. You're Biblically illiterate.
I'll meet you on your own ground and defeat you. Got it? Prove your theory. Simple as that. If it is FACT then it can be proven if not, then don't be calling it science because it is not science it is your imagination. Evolution is nothing more than a fairy tale for grown-ups who don't want to answer to God for their sins. Simple as that.Again, how did the Universe get here? Do you actually know anything about science? Like the Law of Causality or the Laws of Probablility or the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics? The Law of Biogenesis. HOW DID THE UNIVERSE GET HERE?Lucy? Bwhahahahahahahhahahahah don't make me laugh. In regards to Lucy what you were not told is that the knee joint end of the femur was severely crushed; therefore, Johanson's conclusion is pure speculation; guess work! Anatomist Charles Onard, using a computer technique for analysis of skeletal relationships, has concluded that Lucy did not walk upright, as least not in the same manner as humans. In this connection, it should be mentioned that the chimpanzee spends a considerable amount of time walking upright. Thus, there is no valid scientific basis for a conclusion that Lucy was anything more than some kind of monkey or chimpanzee!Lucy has other problems:
Almost all of the evolutionists that investigated the 40% skeleton have changed their minds at least once or more times!
No one has yet found a skeleton that had a skull! Yes, parts from different areas of the dig were put together to form Lucy! She was not found with a skull that could definitely be said to be her own. How many of the tribes do you think ate and killed monkeys? This alone would disqualify this find from being given any serious accreditation because of the monkey skeletons laying around.
Drs. Stern and Susman point out the many ape-like features of Lucy such as: A. The hands and feet. B. The heavy muscled foot with the proper curve needed for climbing. C. Long curved hands with heavy muscles needed for climbing and living in trees. D. The angle of the shoulder blades showing that the muscles were attached in such a way as you would find in a tree dwelling monkey. E. The shape and angularity of the pelvic bone shows the animal to be ape, not human. 6
Question: What walks like a monkey, has heavy muscled curved hands and feet like a monkey, has shoulder blades like a monkey, and a pelvic angle showing that it lived in trees like monkeys? Well, if you are an evolutionist you might think man! Tsk, tsk! Come on, there must be a limit to how stupid a person can be!Again, science writing is not science. That's someone's opinion which can be misrepresented or misconstrued to cover up for his/her lies. One last time, SHOW ME (that's science not imagination) an ape evolve into a man. You know apes are still here, don't ya? Why aren't any of them turning into a man? LOL. And, if apes did evolve then why are they still here? LOL.Finally, answer the question. How did the Universe get here?This message has been edited by Jman267, 04-25-2005 07:25 PM

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May I suggest you pick one of your assertions that you believe you can support and see if it stands up to even a cursory examination.

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Oh I see if we don't play by your rules you'll ban me? LOL, that is what all evolutionists do when confronted with the truth. And, what assertions are you referring to? The Second Law of Thermodynamics? The First Law of Thermodynamics? The Law of Causality? The FACT that the Nebraska man was a fake? SHOW me a man evolve from an ape or YOU HAVE NO PROOF OR FACT. It is your belief which is FAITH and you accept it as such. But, don't be calling it science unless you can prove it.And, evolutionists on this board have NOT proven anything...they quote from Darwin's book or the NEA or some other "science writing". That doesn't prove anything. Can you make salt in a lab? Can you show me a man evolve from an ape then? Like I said, if not, then don't be calling it science. It is NOT science, it's your religion and it's a cult at that!Lastly, answer the darn question! Where did the Universe and everything in it come from?If you believe in the Big Bang Theory then 1.) where did the Hydrogen come from since it had to come from somewhere (law of causality which is FACT) or do you believe the pen and paper magically appeared and then it magically wrote the book? 2.) How did we get the other 90 or so elements like Plutonium from Hydrogen? 3.) why do three planets spin backwards? Why do at least 30 moons revolve backwards? Ever heard of the Law of Angular Momentum? 4.) Do you also believe there was an explosion at a print shop and the Webster's English Dictionairy magically appeared?This message has been edited by Jman267, 04-25-2005 07:44 PM

"Doing such diverse themes in one topic is a violation of the forum guidelines."Do you know what that is called? It's called straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel (Mathew 23:24).You are more interested in following man's rules than God's. That's why Jesus Christ calls you hypocrites! You'll follow man's rules (even tho they are soo stupid and evil) no problem but not God's LAW (like sodomy, abortion,etc.). What a joke! That's why you believe in evolution because you don't want to answer for your sins because you hate Him. You're conscience beareth witness against you and then you (because God allowed you to) seared your conscience and became a reprobate. You're irresponsible and you want everyone else to be like you. No thanks not me!!Again, can any evolutionist here answer the question. How did the Universe and everything in it get here? Basics, back to the basics because don't waste my time with Haeckel's Law of Recapitulation, etc.. that was proven to be a fraud more than 100 years ago! One last time, HOW DID THE UNIVERSE GET HERE?This message has been edited by Jman267, 04-25-2005 07:56 PM

"Ranting in this topic is going to get you nowhere, so stop doing such."I'll do whatever I want just like you do. Got it?

"The main point about the creation of the Universe is not necessary to the relevance or evidence about evolution"It sure is relevant! It hinges on everything and if you dont' like it tough beans.... You just want to throw God out of the equation and glorify man....well not me so don't pawn me with your liberal games. And, the molecule to man theory is absurd and has no basis of fact and it is not science. So yes it is very relevant because you're using my tax dollars to deeive children. I am not a bigot like evolutionists I would teach kids both views and let them decide."Evolution deals with the way life has changed over time and not origins. However, there are several threads about abiogenesis and cosmolgy here."The way life has changed? Are you kidding me? Evolution states that life has gotten better and better and better and better and that we keep evolving. That's NOT science. We aren't getting better and evolving we are DEVOLVING, DISENTEGRATING, DECAYING and headed towards ultimate death. Those are the FACTS. You don't know very much about the Second Law of Thermodynamics nor do you have much common sense. The Law of Entropy is FACT and squarely negates macroevolution period. YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE ON THIS PLANET HAS NEVER OBSERVED MACROEVOLUTION, therefore it is not fact, nor science. It is faith based, and you accept it as such. It's your religion. It's your cult.And, most important belief in Creation lines up PERFECTLY with science. Belief in evolution does NO such thing. You have to have more faith to believe in evolution than creation. My beliefs MATCH up perfectly with the LAWS (those are FACTS bud)of Science. The First Law of Thermo (which STATES that nothing is being either created or evolved by present processes), the Second Law of Thermo...both completely and squarely NEGATE any type of evolution other than microevolution. So doesn't the Law of Biogenesis, Laws of Probability, etc... Evolutionists have to BYPASS those Laws to believe in evolution. Evolution is NOT scientific and don't be calling it science. It's your religion nothing more. Evolutionists are misleading millions upon millions of little kids based on their personal beliefs and opinions and not SCIENCE while using my tax dollars to do it. ANd, YOU will be held responsible for every soul you destroy by your deception.In living organisms, true vertical changes GO DOWN, not up--mutations cause deterioration, individuals die, species become extinct. So where are the BILLIONS of transitional forms? Numerous kinds of extinct animals are found, but NEVER, in all of these billions of fossils, is a truly incipient or transitional form found. No fossil has ever been found with half scales/half feathers, half legs/half wings/ half-developed heart, half-developed eye or any other such indicator. Furthermore, WHY do evolutionists continue to teach lies that have been disproven for years? Why do evolutionists have to "doctor" evidence for their little idiotic unproven theory? Why can't we simply OBSERVE macroevolution with our eyes? Why can't we see a man evolve from an ape, a star evolve from hydrogen, life evolve from chemicals or any thing of the sort? WHY?????????????????????????? Put your damn money where your mouth is! You know why can't? Simple, the First and Second Law of Thermodynamics or in other words God won't let you. You see that? God's got you cornered. You belief LIFE AROSE from nothing while mocking the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. God's got you! Plain and simple. You either accept evolution or creation by faith except creationists belief line up PEFECTLY with science and the Creator. That's called check mate. Make your decision very wisely from here on out...Now, microevolution is true. Big whooped-dee-do. That proves nothing. In fact, it shouldn't be called evolution. It's BIBLE. The BIBLE says that each would produce after its/his kind. So, don't be calling it evolution because it isn't evolution it's BIBLE. And, dogs are always dogs although they occur in approximately 250 varieties. THEY ARE STILL DOGS....."like begets like" which matches up PERFECTLY with the BIBLE not evolution. You have NEVER seen a half dog/half cat or any thing of the sort. You can't create energy or matter!"By the way, I have looked at drdino's site a few times. He favors the debunked angular momentum argument and more than once quotes about the camel and gnat."I have nothing to do with Hovind. Never met him in my life. Never talked with him in my life. I wasn't quoting him I was quoting you the Bible. And, in your whole post you haven't provided ONE OUNCE of FACT, or SCIENCE. You gave your opinions. Your opinion means nothing. We are here to talk about FACTS, SCIENCE, and the TRUTH not to philosphize about your (ye shall be as gods?) opinions or beliefs. That's not science. It's sad you guys don't even get it. You talk about evolution being science and blah blah blah blah but you provide NO SCIENCE or FACT whatsoever. SCIENCE is OBSERVABLE. You can't provide one example of OBSERVABLE macroevolution. Like I said it's sad.....it's also BIBLE.....Romans 1:18-32 states:"18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."2 Timothy 3:1-7:"1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."See that last part? Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. You mess with God and His creation and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ and He will absolutely positively mess with you and your mind.a2 Peter 3:3-5:" 3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of...."Again, do you see that? Scoffers.....and boy do we got 'em!! And, the second part "all things continue as they were from the beginning..." This remarkable belief is evolutionary uniformitarianism and it completely dominates the scientific and educational establishments of every nation in the world today. It has been made the basic premise of origins and meaning. This is a remarkable fulfillment of Peter's prophecy (about 1,900 years ago). God knew exactly what the world which btw, is the devil's world and worldly system (II Cor. 4:4), was gonna do thousands of years before it did it. And, lastly you are willingly ignorant of it too. Very sad. You are gonna trade your pride and possibly a 70 year life for eternity. Not me, no thanks.One last thing, do you or anyone here drive a used car? Then, how can you possible believe in evolution? Tsk, tsk.

"Why are you asking biologists physics questions?'Oh, I am sorry I thought we were here to talk about FACTS, SCIENCE and the TRUTH. I guess not. Evolutionists are here to philosphize, hypothesize and give opinions and turn around and call it science. It's not science, don't be calling it science, its your opinion, its your belief, its your RELIGION. Congratulations, you are in a religion. See, God's got you either way!And, why can't you answer any of these questions with FACTS/SCIENCE and not junk science or science falsely so called (1 Timothy 6:20)?Can you answer one question.How did the Universe and everything get here? Choose oneA.) The Universe got here accidentally.B.) The Universe got here supernaturally.C.) The Universe has always been here.D.) The Universe is not here.Please, be a man/woman and make a choice because there are NO other options. That's it. That is all that any scientist or teacher or educator, etc... know today. It's simple. I can sum up what a college education will teach you before you waste a $100,000 plus dollars on nothing. Nobody knows more than that. And, to think these pathetic institutions charge $100,000 or MORE for you to able to say "Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny"....when its not even true! It's a fraud! So you can say "boy I ain't I smart!" and glorify yourself. That's worhsipping the creature/creation and not the Creator. That's pantheistic evolution! God still thinks the same of you. You're a sinner and you broke God's laws. You're destined for Hell permanently unless you do something about it.

"So what does driving a used car have to do with evolution?'Do you believe in evolution, that is macroevolution? That we get better and better over time. You know we started out as a molecule evolved into a man? That non-living organisms evolved into LIVING organisms? That life arose from nothing? The pen and paper wrote the book? It's all the same junk! Do you believe in macroevolution?"As to the rest of your post...If you pick a topic, propose it, and it gets accepted then we can talk."I did several times and NO ONE has answered it yet. Why?Here it is again:How did the Universe and everything get here? Choose oneA.) The Universe got here accidentally.B.) The Universe got here supernaturally.C.) The Universe has always been here.D.) The Universe is not here.-------------------------"Until then I'll try to keep my liberal soul destroying to a minimum."LOL (and sorry too), hey man you can do, believe anything you want. I don't care. God GAVE you a free will to do that. You do have a free will right? Just remember there are consequences for those free will decisions, beliefs, etc...God gave you enough rope to hang yourself or save yourself. It's your choice. It's a personal decision where you want to spend eternity. God is ALL about ABSOLUTES. And that is something that man/woman and this world can't stand! God is about Heaven/Hell, good/evil, clean/unclean, righteous/unrighteous....you get the point I hope. This world and the scientific (and I used that term very loosely) community believe in no absolutes. That's ridiculous. If you believe that then that's an absolute! Get it? Man, I hope and pray so....because it's not my neck....it's yours.The worse part is that going to heaven and living forever with the Creator is so easy. God made it so easy for you/world. God doesn't want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9) in Hell. It is NOT God's will for you to be cast into outer darkness/Hell forever. If you end up there it is 100% your fault! God's will for your life is to enter into heaven (free gift) paid by the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary's cross and to live and reign with Him forever. The question is will YOU accept/receive that free gift? The decision is 100% in YOUR hands. God doesn't force anyone to accept or recieve it. He stands at the door and knocks. Will you let Him in? If not, then it's 100% YOUR fault because of one 5 letter word....PRIDE. Will you choose LIFE or death?

PLEASE!Hey bud, you aren't going to offend me. I'll prolly get a good laugh at it too. So go ahead pick your poision.

"I don't know. I don't know how the universe began, or even if the universe had a beginning. Right now, our current knowledge of the laws of science are only valid after ten-to-the-minus-forty of a second after time zero. In fact, we only assume that there was a beginning by extrapolating the current expansion of the universe backwards, and since we cannot even know for sure what the universe was like before that time, this extrapolation may not even be valid. We cannot be sure what the very beginning was like, and there may not even have been a beginning."Nothing you just said was scientific at all. This is a forum for creation vs evolution and when CONFRONTED with the facts, truth, or science you run and hide and try to throw in big words to make yourself look good. Absolutely ridiculous and all because of PRIDE. Everything you stated was conjecture, opinion or hypothesizing. There was no ABSOLUTES in anything you said. Like I said, the world hates absolutes! And, God is all about absolutes!"or even if the universe had a beginning"Man, are you serious? You don't know the universe had a beginning? So, you're saying we are not here? That's why people are in the insane asylum. That's ridiculous! Did you have a beginning? Did your car, your home, your clothes have a beginning? Of course they did. Why can't you answer the question? The answer is simple. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that NOTHING is either being created or destroyed. That means it had a beginning. That means it already here. That means it was created! Man, evolutionists know absolutely nothing about true science. Why is that?"our current knowledge of the laws of science are only valid after ten-to-the-minus-forty of a second after time zero. In fact, we only assume that there was a beginning by extrapolating the current expansion of the universe backwards, and since we cannot even know for sure what the universe was like before that time, this extrapolation may not even be valid."Wrong, that is not science and don't be calling it science. Science is observable, testable and provable. That is NOT science. Science is the First Law of Thermo which negates everything you just said!"We cannot be sure what the very beginning was like, and there may not even have been a beginning."We didn't have a beginning? Then how does nothing evolve into everything? That's faith. That's religion. That's not science and don't be calling it science. And, if we didn't have a beginning then are you saying you are not here? Nuts!! Plain nuts man!! I told ya before that if you mess with God and His creation through unbelief He will ABSOLUTELY mess with you! The proof is in the pudding.ANd, we do know what the beginning was like. You just have NOT taken the time to read an AV1611 (BIBLE). And, you have NOT searched for the TRUTH with all your heart."So, I don't know how the universe began, or if it began. No one does. And no one may ever know.'So I take it your choice was D? It has to be. Since you say we had no beginning which means we aren't really here. Nuts!It obviously began because we are here! So, you're wrong and not scientific. You gave your opinion. That's not science, its a belief and you accept it by faith. It's your religion. Don't be calling it science!And, we do know how we got here! "In the beginning God created" (Gen 1:1).....got it? There's only one scientific answer of the 4 options.And, if we don't know how we got here then how is that SCIENCE? That is not science. That is your belief and opinion. Science is provable, testable, observable, demonstratable. Don't be calling it science. It is NOT science. Evolution is a religion. Plain and simple.

"What on earth gave you the idea that evolution had anything to do with things getting "better and better"?"What? Are you kidding me? That's exactly what macroevolution or true vertical evolution teaches, believes and states. Molecule to man, puddle to pond, amoeba to whatever. That is exactly what is taught in our public schools as FACT and SCIENCE and it is not FACT nor SCIENCE. It is lies, opinions and conjecture.So, what you are saying is that you don't believe things are getting better and better? If so, then how can you believe in evolution (if that is your belief)?How did nonliving organisms evolve into living organisms then? How did a star evolve from hydrogen, how did a man evolve from an ape? That's macroevolution/true vertical evolution and is exactly the definition of "getting better and better". We are not evolving we are devolving. That is science. It's called the 2nd Law of Thermo.... Why is evolution being taught in our schools as FACT, why do you believe in it(if that's your belief)? It is not FACT, it is opinion, its a belief, its accepted on faith, its a religion.And, maybe you are getting evolution confused. There are many types of evolution and only one of them is true. See that's what lieing evolutionists like the NEA do to confuse people and confuse little kids. Nothing but the devil man!Microevolution is true. But, its not evolution. It's BIBLE. Dogs are always dogs even tho they come in many varieties. That does NOT explain macroevolution or how we got here. You have never seen a dog with wings or half dog/half cat or anything of the sort which would be macroevolution. That's why evolution is a lie. You have absolutely no transitional forms any where on the face of the earth. There are just a few and they are questionable at best. There should be BILLIONS of them, in fact, everything should show transitional features. But they do not! If we were to rely strictly on observed evidence, we would have to agree that past evolution has been falsified!If evolution did not occur in the past and does not occur at present, then it is entirely imaginary and not part of the real world at all. This leaves creation as the answer. Oh no not that! ANything but that! And, this fact is also confirmed by the BEST-PROVED laws of science--the law of conservation in quantity and the law of decay in complexity or the famous First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics. End of story. Choose your poison but choose it wisely.Current scientific evidence against evolutionism:1.) There is no present evolution; only horizontal variations and extinctions.2.) There was no past evolution, only ubiquitous gaps between basic kinds of fossils.3.) There can be no possible evolution since universal laws of conservation and decay now govern all natural processes.4.) There has been no time period long enough for evolution, for historical records go back only a few thousand years, and the fossil record speaks only of rapid formation.5.) There is no Biblical evolution (Geneis 1:25;2:1-3; I Cor. 15:38-39).6.) There could have been no theistic evolution, for death came into the world only when man sinned (Romans 5:12; I Cor. 15:21).7.) There could have been no pantheistic evolution, for God condemns all who worhsip the creation as its own Creator (Romans 1:20-25).

"Calm down, Jman. Surely we can have a rational discussion about this, eh?
We don't know whether the universe had a beginning. It may have always existed. We don't yet know."I am perfectly calm and you are perfectly wrong. You just changed your answer from D to C. It could NOT have always been here because it would have turned to mush 35 million years ago due to entropy or the Second Law of Thermodynamics! Everything dies! You're going to die, you're clothes, you're car, the sun is shrinking, etc.....it is headed towards the dust of the ground. That is fact. That is SCIENCE and it's proven by the Second Law of Thermo. So, again, you don't know what you're talking about nor are you scientific. See, like I told you. I don't need a Bible to defeat you. I'll defeat you on your own turf. You are not scientific at all. There is only ONE answer that is scientific out of the four. So, don't be calling it science. It is not science. It's your opinion, belief, and religion. You accept that on faith. I'll stick with science (1st and 2nd Law) and you can stick with your imaginatory beliefs. In reality, I believe the Bible because of science and mathematics, you believe in evolution by faith!"Surely, scientists are currently working on this question, trying to improve our understanding the laws of physics, but as yet we cannot know what was happening before this time with any certainty. So, maybe continued extrapolation backwards is unwarranted. Maybe the universe always existed; maybe it never had a beginning."Do you have any clue what Science is? Look up the definition. Your statement is not science and don't be calling it science. It's your religion. It's your belief system. And, I already told you that in order to believe in evolution you have to bypass the BEST-PROVED laws of science that govern all natural processes. And, they are the First and Second Law of Thermo. Case closed. Argument over. I used SCIENCE you have used nothing but your opinion, beliefs and conjecture and then try to call it science. It's not science and don't be calling it science. It's junk science or science falsely so-called (I Timothy 6:20)."So, maybe the universe always existed"Can't see Second Law of Thermodynamics."So: I don't know. I don't know whether the universe had a beginning. If it did have a beginning, I don't know how it began.I don't know. That is a valid answer to the question.'This is ridiculous. You guys cry about this is a forum and stick to the rules but you are NOT being scientific! It is not a valid answer. It's a completely idiotic, invalid scientific answer with ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY no science in it whatsoever. You gave me your belief/opinion. Your belief is not scientific. It's your religion. I am not interested in your religion. I am interested in SCIENCE and FACTS. And, by giving your belief/opinion you just made it clear that you are your own god! That's evolution to a capital E! And, that's also BIBLE....Genesis 3:5...ye shall be as gods?And, I am sorry that you don't know. But I do know based on science and mathematics. I have proven that over and over and over and over and I have gotten no scientific answer whatsoever out of anybody here. I have gotten your beliefs and opinions. THAT'S NOT SCIENCE. I am dealing with a bunch of religionists who are their own gods. That's why you believe in evolution. You worship the creature/creation and NOT the Creator. YOu don't want to answer for sins, evilness or anything of the sort. The worse part is that does NOT change the FACT that you will answer one day and you are without excuse (Romans 1:20). End of story!You'll have a nice day. I am wasting my time here since you don't want to talk about FACTS or science. You want to give me your opinions, conjecture, possibilities (that's not science!)and beliefs. This is not a forum for creation vs. evolution this is a religious forum. Plain and simple. And, how can anything come to life if it is dead? While laughing at the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, you believe in a resurrection of all life from nothing! Tsk, tsk.This message has been edited by Jman267, 04-26-2005 12:53 PM

"that you define how one would distinguish a religion from some other view point or way of considering the world"This is my last one. I have done this already. This is not a science forum. It is a bunch of philosphizing and opinions with no science to back it up.Definition:How can 0 + 0 equal life when it does not even equal one?
How can anything come to life if it is dead?
Better yet, can anything come to life of itself when it never was?
If life came from nothing how can something come from nothing? Isn't that faith?
When you have faith don't you have a religion?There it is plain and simple. If you believe life arose from nothing (evolution, Big Bang and btw the Big Bang Theory is dead and being abandoned by evolutionists) then you accept that on faith. That can NOT be proven SCIENTIFICALLY. It has NEVER been observed, proved or repeated, it has been tested and of course failed millions of times! But you still hold on hope based on your faith. Science is provable, testable, repeatable, observable and demonstratable. And, since you can NOT prove, repeat, or observe life arising from nothing or any form of macroevolution then you MUST accept it on faith. And, if it's by faith then it's a religion. The Law of Biogenesis states that life must have antecedant life. So, therefore your "life arose from nothing" is NOT scientific. It is your belief, it is accepted on faith, it is your religion. Game over!"When you have clarified that then it is suggested that you support you claim that "evolution" (which you also seem to have a rather non-standard definition of) meets the criteria of your definition."You have no idead what the definition of evolution is. I know exactly what it is. There is only one part to the 6 types of evolution that is true. That's microevolution or horizontal evolution and that proves absolutely nothing about the origen of life. The other 5 types of evolution (macro, cosmic, chemical,organic, etc..) are not scientific, they are based on faith and your imagination. They are your religion. If you believe you are an animal(evolved from an ape) that's your business and your choice. Don't throw me in there and don't throw my kids (or anyone else's kids for that matter that's communism) in there and STOP wasting my tax dollars to promote your religion!"Continuing to post as you have with the tone that you have used will result in a 24 hour suspension to start with. There will not be any more warnings."Oh, no I can't debate with religionists posing as true science believers. Big rip! You no more believe in true science than the easter bunny is real. You are interested in rationalizing your irresponsible, irreverant actions (sins) and calling it science. You are doing nothing but trying to justify your own desire to do whatever you want! (Ye shall be as gods? All over again). It is not science and don't be calling it science! It's your belief and religion. You accept it by faith.

"First, the Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with beginnings, either of Life or the Universe"The stupid, unscientific theory of evolution has everything to do with the origin of life. You don't even know what you believe in.There are 6 parts to evolution which are taught throughout the world and in our public school children and they are effectual lies mixed with some truth:-Cosmic evolution (Big Bang-origin of matter)
-Chemical evolution (higher chemical)
-Planetary and stellar evolution (origin of the stars)
-Organic evolution (origin of life)
-Macroevolution - animals chaning into new kinds (unobserved)
-Microevolution (variations)Only one of those is provable, testable, repeatable and scientific--microevolution. That doesn't prove a single cotton picking thing other than it proves the AV1611 (BIBLE). God the Creator said each would produce after its/his kind! Duh, dogs make dogs, cats make cats, and so on. Dogs do NOT make bananas and vice-versa. You may be related to the squirrel but I am not. I know exactly how I got here and it leads all the way back to Noah and then to Adam. It is simple cause and effect. Another SCIENTIFIC law!There other 5 are just a bunch of religious non-sense and your imagination. They are not scientific. ANd, they are being taught as fact and science. That should concern you if you have kids or are going to have kids. Unless, of coure, you don't care about eternity or the TRUTH. And, if so then that's just plain communism.And on that note:Romans 3:4 states: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar!Boy, aint that the truth. Nothing like a 1611 to shed some light on the "scientific" establishment.This message has been edited by Jman267, 04-26-2005 01:28 PM

"Merely repeating that you are correct does not make you correct. Correctness and wrongness (is that a word?) are determined by logical reasoning and presentation of relevant facts. So, let us reason together."I did NOT say I was right because "I said so". You said that, not me. And, my answer was perfectly scientific. Yours is not. It is not my problem that you don't understand the 2nd Law of Thermo. You have absolutely no basic understanding of the Law. None, zippo, nada. Who cares that you have a college degree? I have one too. That doesn't make you smart! It's hilarious actually taht you are running to some pathetic idiotic award to say you're smart just like I said earlier...wow you went to college so you can say "Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny." That's called charge the sucker money!And, frankly, you're not reasoning at all. It is not reasoning it is your opinion. You say we don't know. That isn't reasoning, it isn't science. You don't know what science is. What is the definition of science? If you don't know something then that is not science or fact! Do you know what entropy is? Why are you going to die, scientifically speaking? Why are you decaying, distintegrating? Can you explain these to me.And, if the universe has always been here then mathematically show me from let's say 500,000 years ago if each family had only 3 kids(which is extremely conservative and unrealistic) and they lived only to 40 years old (to account for wars another rotten fruit of evolution)? Show me how many people would be on the face of the earth TODAY and hey Mr. I have a degree in Physics its gonna be a lot more than the 6 billion we have presently. In fact, you'll soon realize that we don't have enough room on the earth for that many people. Then you will have to explain how in the world can you not find ANY transitional forms in the fossil record to prove macroevolution? There would be billions upon billions upon billions of them and you can't find any? ROFL! What about the plant life? There's more plant life than anything on this earth? Why no transitional forms there either? How did all the sand on the earth get here? Let's see you reproduce it then! How did all the salt get in the oceans? Let's see you reproduce it then? Let's see you or the "scientific" community reproduce all the snow flakes in the world? Have you studied snowflakes before? All 6 sided and no two alike? Yea, try that one for size. The list could go on and on and on and on and you have ZERO answers. You could go to college for 45 years and not only will you come out not knowing the answers, you won't know the questions. The proof is in the pudding.....to say the earth has always been here is stupid and ridiculous. That is not scientific....that is your opinion because you can't prove that at all. I can prove its hasn't been here by the Second Law of Thermo. Everything dies....its simple unless of course you don't think that then of course you'll have to find out the hard way. And, I can prove it had a beginning by the First Law. That means something or somebody had to create it which laughs in the face of evolution.The only scientific answer to my question is #2. That's science by ruling out the other 3. It could NOT have gotten here accidentally because you can NOT create energy or matter. It's already here. That's the First Law. It hasn't been here always because it would have turned to mush 35 million years ago because of entropy. That's the 2nd Law. And, if its not here then pop the pills, do the drugs, blow your brains out, they are not real anyways. There's only one scientific answer. It got here supernaturally. And,then you better find out what the Creator expects from you and find out quick. You are ONLY one heart beat away from your eternal destination. You really gonna trade eternity for a measely 70 year life full of problems, sickness, disease, and finally death? That's insane brother!The rest I will answer later. I've been doing this for over 3 hours. But, I will get back to you scientifically unlike the rest of y'all.