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Author Topic:   Faith no more (at least not in scientific knowledge?)
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5841 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 16 of 20 (195756)
03-31-2005 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Percy
03-31-2005 10:31 AM


Sorry for getting back to this sort of late in the game. I guess I should have been more precise with terminology. I think a good explanation has already been given. You near missed with your description from my post, but didn't hit it dead on.
Perhaps an example applying both approaches to the same problem would help.
Let's take geology.
Faith uses deductive reasoning by starting with some initial premises, in this case that all geology can be explained by statements within the Bible regarding geological events. He also describes scientists as if they had an initial premise, which is that God does not exist and the Bible is counterfactual and so evidence must be explained so as NOT to coincide with Biblical literature.
Using this both sides set out to "explain the evidence" based on the stories they started with as an assumed truth. Problems with evidence must be explained away by adding elements not within the premise, that will help keep the premise intact.
Thus radiocarbon dating must simply not be accurate because "something happened" to decay rates, and the assumption they could be constant must be wrong as they would lead to evidence that does not fit with the Biblical text. In a similar fashion he appears to be saying that scientists see this decay and adopted an element (uniformitarianism) to help their original premise along.
Inductive reasoning would work differently. While one may be motivated by the Bible to go seek the truth about the world, how is by not assuming a premise. One gathers the evidence by observing strata of rock (orientation, size, composition), and how rock can be formed, and then creating a model or premise of how the layers might have been formed.
One might argue that uniformitarianism is a premise, but that is more of a practical tool than an outright premise. It can be abandoned if there is sufficient evidence that a disconformity in process can happen. Further, it cannot decide in advance what the rest of the model looks like. One cannot get the earth is not 6K years old simply by using an assumption of uniformitarianism.
And as I said that is more or less a practical tool. Without it there is no making models to be tested beyond our immediate temporal or even spatial proximity.
Okay so in this case what scientists did was inductive, by looking at rocks and processes of rock formation to form a model of how geology works on a large scale. This leads to an ability to create models of how the world's geological layers were formed and what kind of timescale it must have taken.
This model may be used in a slightly deductive manner for routine, or initial descriptions for new evidence. The difference being if there is a problem. Some may try and invent explanations to preserve the overall model, but it is not sacrosanct and need not be preserved. Good examples of overthrowing original model elements in geology is the eventual acceptance of catastrophic mechanisms as well as continental drift.
Further, in other scientific fields inductive reasoning has created models of how things work in that field. For example atoms, nuclear material, and ultimately radioactive decay. This was pursued separate from theories of geology.
As it turns out that model allowed for testing of assumptions regarding geology when one notes that radioactive material exists within rock. They run tests using the model of decay for radioactive elements, to check the model of age determination of strata in geology, and it is found to match.
That was not scientists running around looking for some kind of test that would come up with a number that matches a prediction. It was a happenstance result of another field's model, that we could test the geological model and did so and it turned out as would be predicted. Thus the model continues.
Hope this helps.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Percy, posted 03-31-2005 10:31 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by JonF, posted 03-31-2005 4:00 PM Silent H has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 17 of 20 (195758)
03-31-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jazzns
03-31-2005 1:39 PM


Re: Interesting...
Mathematical induction "buikds: but it does not attempt to produce a generalisation from finite information. Rather it generates the information needed.
For those who don't know about it mathematical induction deals with proving that a statement applies for all integers above a certain number.
You start by showing that it is true for that number (usually 1 is chosen). Then you show that if the statement is true for an integer i it is also true for the next integer i + 1.
To take a simple example we define the function S(n) to be the sum of the integers 1..n.
e.g.
S(1) = 1
S(2) = 1 + 2 = 3
S(3) = 1 + 2 + 3 = 6
We can show that S(n) = (n^2 + n)/2
Is it true for S(1) ? (1^2 + 1)/2 = (1 + 1)/2 = 2/2 = 1 = S(1)
It is !
So assume that it is true for some integer i
S(i) = (i^2 + i)/2
We want to show that S(i +1) = ((i + 1)^2 + (i + 1))/2
S(i + 1) = (i^2 + i)/2 + i + 1
= ((i^2 + i) + (2i + 2))/2
= (i^2 + 2i + i + 1 + 1)/2
= ((i^2 + 2i + 1) + (i + 1))/2
= ((i + 1)^2 + (i + 1))/2
QED !

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5841 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 18 of 20 (195762)
03-31-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by berberry
03-31-2005 12:47 PM


It would seem to me that you could make an objective distinction between the "science"... pursued by IDers and the science pursued by true scientists. One is based on ancient texts and traditional beliefs to the diminution of evidence and observation, while the other is concerned only with evidence and observation.
That is correct that you can make an objective distinction between the "sciences" and argue for the adoption of one or the other based on the strength or weakness each possess.
I'm not sure it is fair to simply argue that their's is based on ancient texts. That is actually a logical fallacy. Neither is it fair to say modern science is more concerned with evidence and observation.
The question really has to be in what each counts as evidence and observation and how that would affect reaching a correct model, which is hopefully accurate to the background "truth".
It is totally fair to say they have a vested interest in weakening the current process because without it they are unlikely to have things count as evidence that they need to form a sufficient competing scientific hypothesis. That's why I usually counter them by bringing up all the other hypotheses which would then become scientific and they would not want.
However they do have a point that it is logically possible that we could be so rigorous with current methodology that a "truth" about the world will never be able to be called "scientific knowledge". That seems sort of sad, but not earthshaking. That's what faith is for.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by berberry, posted 03-31-2005 12:47 PM berberry has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 19 of 20 (195816)
03-31-2005 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Silent H
03-31-2005 2:22 PM


One might argue that uniformitarianism is a premise, but that is more of a practical tool than an outright premise. It can be abandoned if there is sufficient evidence that a disconformity in process can happen. Further, it cannot decide in advance what the rest of the model looks like. One cannot get the earth is not 6K years old simply by using an assumption of uniformitarianism.
I'm not sure exactly what meaning of "uniformitarianism" you are using here, since I don't have a feeling for what you mean by "sufficient evidence that a disconformity in process can happen." Modern geologists have discarded at least parts of Lyell's formulation of uniformitarianism (see Message 61) and of course modern geologist recognize that catastrophes do occur. Or by "discontinuity in process" do you mean something like the change in radioactive decay from something that was not a decay process to the current process that Simple is pushing in Blood in dino bones and a currently proposed new topic The split, dating, and God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 03-31-2005 2:22 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Silent H, posted 04-01-2005 4:57 AM JonF has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5841 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 20 of 20 (195968)
04-01-2005 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by JonF
03-31-2005 4:00 PM


I'm not sure exactly what meaning of "uniformitarianism"
Sorry, it was late and I was rushed and I should have been more clear. I did not mean traditional geological "uniformitarianism", though it should be noted (by Faith) that that was a model which ended up being discarded with evidence.
I was running with a more common way of understanding it, including a way I saw Faith use it in the great debate... that is that processes today are the way they worked in the past.
by "discontinuity in process" do you mean something like the change in radioactive decay from something that was not a decay process to the current process that Simple is pushing in Thread
Yep. For example, if we found regions of space, that allowed for different decay rates due to some characteristic, and it is one that could apply to the entire earth some time in its past, that might open the door for challenging the utility of radioactive dating.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by JonF, posted 03-31-2005 4:00 PM JonF has not replied

  
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