What Science is NOT

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Originally posted by mark24:
Forgiven,

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The current city of Tyre sits atop phoenician remains, so it is hardly "undiscovered".

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The Encyclopedia Britannica says 'Excavations have uncovered remains of the Greco-Roman, Crusader, Arab, and Byzantine civilizations, but most of the remains of the Phoenician period lie beneath the present town", hence Tyre has been rebuilt. It matters not a jot if the entire city was rebuilt, if there was a town built that overlaps the ancient site, then it was reasonably "rebuilt". Regardless, the mainland side of the site is built upon (as can be seen in the photo), & has phoenician artifacts beneath it, ergo, the mainland city has been built upon.

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Was the city built on the same site as the old city?

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Yes, it was.

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Have the Phoenician remains been discovered?

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Yes, the new town sits on top of it.

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The prophecy is wrong on these two points.

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Mark

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hi mark... i posted to this earlier... what you wrote above, does that concern the mainland city or the island city? let's get out of the way exactly what we're talking about before we continue...

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hi mark... i posted to this earlier... what you wrote above, does that concern the mainland city or the island city? let's get out of the way exactly what we're talking about before we continue...

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Forgiven,http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/prophecy.htmThe island city & mainland are joined by a causeway, & all three have been built on. All locations are still above water. Check the photo, I'm not sure if it was you that said the island had a coastline approx 2.5 miles in length, but the photo bears this out. There is also a part of the city known as the "Hay Er-Raml", or Quarter of sand. This is the causeway between the mainland & the island part. Compared with; As you can see, the island still exists, but is connected via a sandbar with the mainland, & has been built upon.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Okay you didn't like that prophesy. At least john's starting to like me i noticed. lol.

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kissie kissie...

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It would appear tyre was not the only city to be prophesied angainst and be destroyed.....

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Look at the dates. The earliest copy-- well, not even that but merely fragments-- of Ezekiel is from the Qumram caves circa 100 bc. The events spoken of had already happened. Now if I had a book written today that 'predicted' events that happened two to five hundred years in the past, would anyone take it seriously? Even if the book claimed to not be the original but a copy of a much older work?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by forgiven:
ok, someone here (maybe me) seems confused... the island city of tyre is at issue here, not the mainland city...

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Why are we making this distinction? Ezekiel doesn't, not that I can tell.

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so the question is, what sits where the island city of tyre used to sit?

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This is not the question unless you can demonstrate a good reason for making the distinction.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

John, Forgiven.The mainland town was known as Ushu (or Ussu) from Egyptian, Greek, & Assyrian texts, but eventually became a suburb of Tyre proper (the island). Ezekiel, if he made a distinction, would have made a prophecy regarding Ushu, not Tyre, if he had specifically meant the mainland town.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by mark24:
The mainland town was known as Ushu (or Ussu) from Egyptian, Greek, & Assyrian texts, but eventually became a suburb of Tyre proper (the island). Ezekiel, if he made a distinction, would have made a prophecy regarding Ushu, not Tyre, if he had specifically meant the mainland town.

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Got any references? I haven't ran across this bit.I did run across a spiffy picture of the barren rock of modern Tyre. No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.kadado.com/media/pics/lebanon/tyre/tyre_from_the_air.jpg------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

John,Do a search with "Ushu Tyre". I didn't go much beyond discovering this (today ) myself.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by mark24:
John,

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Do a search with "Ushu Tyre". I didn't go much beyond discovering this (today ) myself.

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Mark

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How is this for irony, God apologizing to Neb. because Tyre DID NOT fall.

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In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare; yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that he had expended against it. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: I will give the land of Egypt to King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon; and he shall carry off its wealth and despoil it and plunder it; and it shall be the wages for his army. I have given him the land of Egypt as his payment for which he labored, because they worked for me, says the Lord GOD (Ezek. 29:17-20).

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Also notice that Neb did in fact take the mainland city. Since the passage states that Neb got nothing for his efforts we must conclude that the original prophecy concerned the island, thus settled the island vs. mainland issue.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

As I stated in the beginning post, when we find one instance of a counter-example, we need to reexamine the data, or our hypotheses. Obviously, the fact that there is some kind of population on Tyre shows that the prophecy of Ezekiel is not completely fulfilled. We can waltz around the semantics, but the end result has to be, "back to the drawing board."Others wisely stated in the beginning of this discussion that this investigation was futile because the hypotheses was not falsifiable. You were right and I was wrong.Does this shatter my belief that the Bible is the Word of God? No, because the conclusions of science are always tentative. The Word of God, and the truth found in it affect everything in my life. I don't want to base my life on something as tentative as science.

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Originally posted by Chara:
Obviously, the fact that there is some kind of population on Tyre shows that the prophecy of Ezekiel is not completely fulfilled.

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Convenient but technically unassailable, except on the grounds that it makes the position tautological. It is true no matter what, by design. Hardly convincing.

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Does this shatter my belief that the Bible is the Word of God?

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I didn't expect it to destroy oyur faith. I hope it as least shakes your faith in those hundreds of apologists spreading this story on the web and elsewhere. I found hundreds of such sites. I assume you did too, in the course of this discusion.To Funkie: How can one spread false information such as the story of the barren-rock-o-tyre and not know that it is false? It is a currently occupied city. How hard can that be to verify? Now, see what I meant when I said that apologists tend to disregard fact?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

Chara,

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The Word of God, and the truth found in it ......

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Apply the scientific method to that, then. If you can't, how do you ascertain you have a true statement?Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:Convenient but technically unassailable, except on the grounds that it makes the position tautological. It is true no matter what, by design. Hardly convincing.[/b][/quote]I'm sorry John, but I didn't understand this statement. Can you simplify it for me?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chara:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by John:Convenient but technically unassailable, except on the grounds that it makes the position tautological. It is true no matter what, by design. Hardly convincing.[/b][/quote]I'm sorry John, but I didn't understand this statement. Can you simplify it for me?[/B][/QUOTE]Your statement that the prophecy hasn't been fullfilled yet makes the prophecy tautological. That is, true by definition. 1=1 and 2=2 are tautologies. You can't argue against them, but at the same time they really don't mean much. In other words, the prophecy is insulated from reality. Tyre could grow to be a megapolis occupying the whole planet yet that fact would not damage the prophecy.I could say that eventually I will be crowned King of the United States and simply dismiss criticism with "Wait and see. Eventually it will happen." I doubt anyone would take me seriously, but that is very much the position taken when you say that "well, it just hasn't been fulfilled YET."------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Chara:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by John:Convenient but technically unassailable, except on the grounds that it makes the position tautological. It is true no matter what, by design. Hardly convincing.[/b][/quote]I'm sorry John, but I didn't understand this statement. Can you simplify it for me?[/B][/QUOTE]Your statement that the prophecy hasn't been fullfilled yet makes the prophecy tautological. That is, true by definition. 1=1 and 2=2 are tautologies. You can't argue against them, but at the same time they really don't mean much. In other words, the prophecy is insulated from reality. Tyre could grow to be a megapolis occupying the whole planet yet that fact would not damage the prophecy.I could say that eventually I will be crowned King of the United States and simply dismiss criticism with "Wait and see. Eventually it will happen." I doubt anyone would take me seriously, but that is very much the position taken when you say that "well, it just hasn't been fulfilled YET."[/B][/QUOTE]I think you read something into my statement that wasn't there .... I said that the prophecy had not been completely fulfilled. There is no "yet" there. I think you expected me to say "yet". I promised that I would not bring that "argument" to this thread.

[QUOTE][B]What is ironic is that the NT mentions Tyre as a functioning community, thereby rubbing salt in old Ezekial's prophetic wounds.[/QUOTE][/B]It says that it would be better for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgement than for some.I see several possible interpretations of that. (For example: Which Tyre? Historical or contemporary?)The problem with prophecies (Chara) is that they can be used to support religious views you probably do not subscribe to. I can think of Mormon prophecies that appear to have come to pass.[This message has been edited by gene90, 11-14-2002]