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Author Topic:   Why Evolution is science
AndyB
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 200 (379442)
01-24-2007 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Casey Powell
01-04-2007 12:47 PM


Re: OOOOPS!
Ooops yerself, matey!
You wrote:
"I also have Andrew Bradbury, a "real" Scientist by your own standards too who makes the point loud and clear that Francis Hitching was an Evolutionist"
Oh really? I don't think so! For the simple reason that I don't question whether people are or aren't evolutionists. Only the validity of their evidence and arguments.
(FWIW, all I knew about Hitching was that he didn't think much of some of Darwin's ideas. A point of view shared by numerous evolutionists who feel perfectly capable of supporting the evolutionist point of view without having to face West and pray to Darwin three times a day).
If you know better please give an URL, because I've just "searched" through my Darwin site and I can't find even a mention of Hitching's name.
(I suspect you are confusing my web site with a site - yes, I Googled it - called "The Darwin Papers" where my site is mentioned and Hitching is cited as being an evolutionist on the page that deals with Edward Blyth.)
Regards
Andrew Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Casey Powell, posted 01-04-2007 12:47 PM Casey Powell has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 137 of 200 (379443)
01-24-2007 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by AndyB
01-24-2007 6:01 AM


Re: Yeah.....take those blinders off your eyes, its YECS coming through!
quote:
BTW, as a more general point, the accusation of "YECS coming through" seems both pointlessly prejudicial, and inaccurate, in this context.
It is the point that "Casey Powell" - who proudced that title - wished to make. It may be inaccurate but it is certainly not an accusation.
quote:
Whilst accepting the quote you selected, I'm afraid that isn't the whole story. Blyth did, in fact, in one of the articles presented in full on my website, acknowledge the possibility that differences which occurred in isolated populations might occasionally lead to the emergence of new species.
On the other hand you use the paper I quoted as describing "the spread of species by 'indefinite radiation'". It seems quite clear to me that the radiation refers to the pattern of similarities, without ascribing it to common descent as your use of the word "spread" appears to do. If that was not your intent then I suggest that your rephrase that to indicate that the radiation is a description and not a mechanism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 6:01 AM AndyB has not replied

  
AndyB
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 200 (379444)
01-24-2007 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by PaulK
01-04-2007 6:33 PM


Re: OOOOPS!
Tut, tut. More of the personal attacks and inaccuate information.
PaulK says:
"Checking Bradbury's website (Honest Abe's NLP Emporium) for all I can tell his main occupation is "Neuro-linguistic Programming" - a pseudo-science."
1. I have a degree in social psychology and qualifications in hypnosis and hypno-therapy. I wouldn't claim that any of these are "sciences".
2. No, NLP isn't a pseudo-science - in fact it isn't any kind of science. I fear you may have placed too much faith in the Wikipedia page, much of which WAS blatant misinformation peddled by someone who was running something like 6 sock puppets and apparently couldn't tell the difference between NLP and Scientology.
3. In any case, dragging in NLP is a complete red herring.
Regardless of what is or isn't my main occupation (I'm actually a freelance writer, occasional therapist and until recently a technical author and trainer in the IT sector for a certain quite well-known UK telecommunications company), what the heck has that got to do with the material on my Darwin site? Which is, by the way, very extensively referenced.
4. I have also worked, for about 10 years as a history tutor at a UK 6th Form college. Which might be considered as being somewhat relevant to my ability to carry out historical research.
(Incidentally, I have a second historical website: Introduction to the Scopes Trial. And to save any further irrelevant criticism, the spelling is down to the fact that the site was first created under Windows98 which only allowed 8 letter file names.)
So, would it be too much to ask that you respond to the evidence rather than continuing these personal attacks which add precisely nothing to the discussion?
Thanks in anticipation
Andrew Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2007 6:33 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by PaulK, posted 01-24-2007 7:12 AM AndyB has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 139 of 200 (379445)
01-24-2007 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by AndyB
01-24-2007 7:03 AM


Re: OOOOPS!
SO lets get this straight. You do not claim to be a scientist but nobody is allowed to say that you aren't because it constitutes a "personal attack".
Or is it that you just didn't bother to read my comments in context and note that they were a direct response to Casey Powell's claim that you were a scientist.
OOOOPS indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 7:03 AM AndyB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 7:45 AM PaulK has replied

  
AndyB
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 200 (379447)
01-24-2007 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by PaulK
01-24-2007 7:12 AM


Re: OOOOPS!
Well, I guess you finally managed to hoist yourself on your own petard, as the saying goes.
"SO lets get this straight. You do not claim to be a scientist but nobody is allowed to say that you aren't because it constitutes a 'personal attack'."
No. The point is that it is irrelevant.
You had no idea whether I was a scientist or not when you wrote your reply - you just made the totally unfounded assumption that my main "occupation" was NLP.
Now it may be that you really meant my main PRE-occupation was NLP, but even that would be a false assumption. My Darwin site was my first web site, not the NLP site - you've read far too much into the hierarchy of my site.
That is why I describe your ill-informed remarks as a personal attack - because you're making all sorts of spurious comments about me (NOT my sites) with not a scrap of valid evidence.
"Or is it that you just didn't bother to read my comments in context and note that they were a direct response to Casey Powell's claim that you were a scientist."
As above - you didn't know any more than Casey knew. So I guess you're in the same boat as him?
And there's more.
You write me off as a non-scientist, yet you quote talkorigins as though they were a reliable resource.
Oops!
Check this out in their e-mail archive - back in the late 1990's I had to write in and correct their article on the Blyth-Darwin link because it contained a manufactured quotation which allegedly came from a book by Ernst Mayr.
It so happens that I live not too far away from the University of Sussex, and as an alumnus was able to read the relevant book in their library to see what Mayr really wrote.
Suffice it to say, the fact that the talkorigin page is now reasonably accurate is down to corrections made as a result of my intervention - NOT to the best efforts of the dilittantes at talkorigin.
(And no, that isn't a personal attack, it's a statement of fact based on information supplied by the head of the outfit at the time I wrote to them.)
I may not be a "scientist", but I guess I certainly do better research than the some of the people you seem to put your faith in.
Now, can we please get back to the discussion and stop wasting time.
Thank you
Andrew Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by PaulK, posted 01-24-2007 7:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by PaulK, posted 01-24-2007 8:23 AM AndyB has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 141 of 200 (379449)
01-24-2007 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by AndyB
01-24-2007 6:01 AM


Why the issue about Darwin?
Welcome to the fray AndyB
I am always a little perplexed at why creationists seem to need to discredit Darwin as if that would make evolution go away. This thread is about why evolution is science, not Darwin.
There were many things that Darwin said in his books that have been invalidated since, where the science has moved on. That is what science does after all - starts at a point and builds from there as new information comes along, discarding ideas that don't work.
You seem to be particularly caught up in the issue of discrediting Darwin, looking at your site, so perhaps you can tell me what would be accomplished about the science of evolution IF it was shown that Darwin cribbed all his notes from other sources and is only responsible for putting it all together in one piece?
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 6:01 AM AndyB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 9:13 AM RAZD has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 142 of 200 (379452)
01-24-2007 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by AndyB
01-24-2007 7:45 AM


Re: OOOOPS!
quote:
No. The point is that it is irrelevant.
You had no idea whether I was a scientist or not when you wrote your reply - you just made the totally unfounded assumption that my main "occupation" was NLP.
If it is irrelevant then why are you complaining ? And why do you ignore the fact that I did not make an unfounded assumption, but instead repeated the impression I got FROM YOUR OWN WEBSITE ? I clearly stated as much so you have no excuse for ignoring it.
quote:
You write me off as a non-scientist, yet you quote talkorigins as though they were a reliable resource.
I didn't write you off as a non-scientist. I guess that you still can't manage to understand that I was objecting to Casey Powell's claim that you were. And yes, talkorigins is generally a reliable source.
quote:
I may not be a "scientist", but I guess I certainly do better research than the some of the people you seem to put your faith in.
So I guess you've got no excuse for not spotting the fact that my comments were in direct reply to Casey Powell's false claim, Nor for ignoring the qualifications on my statement.
quote:
Now, can we please get back to the discussion and stop wasting time.
This "waste of time" is entirely your doing. If you did not make your ill-founded and erroneous attacks on my posts I would not respond to point out your errors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 7:45 AM AndyB has not replied

  
AdminQuetzal
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 200 (379456)
01-24-2007 8:56 AM


To PaulK and AndyB
First, to AndyB:
Please allow me to welcome you to EvCForum. We have a wide variety of posters, and welcome a wide variety of viewpoints - with the stipulation that everyone abide by the forum guidelines. Board administration prefers to use a light hand on moderation of the discussions, although you will find that there are two areas where moderation actions tend to be higher: maintaining a civil discourse and maintaining topic integrity. In this particular case, topic integrity is in jeopardy. I hope you will take the opportunity to peruse other threads to find one of interest, or even open a new thread to discuss some element you find of interest in the evolution vs. creationism debate.
To Paul:
You know better. Please cease the off-topic discussion with AndyB. If it continues, you can anticipate having the opportunity to re-familiarize yourself with the forum guidelines during a short time-out.
To All: Please head back in the general direction of the topic.
Comments? Take 'em to the appropriate thread.

"Here come da Judge" - Flip Wilson
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
  • Thread Reopen Requests
  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
  • Proposed New (Great Debate) Topics
    New Members: Important threads to make your stay more enjoyable:
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  • Replies to this message:
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    AndyB
    Inactive Member


    Message 144 of 200 (379459)
    01-24-2007 9:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 141 by RAZD
    01-24-2007 8:00 AM


    Re: Why the issue about Darwin?
    RAZD writes:
    "I am always a little perplexed at why creationists seem to need to discredit Darwin as if that would make evolution go away."
    And I am always perplexed by people who seem to be writing at a tangent.
    To answer the questions I think you're asking:
    1. I have no idea why you would imagine that all "creationists" (a hopelessly vague generalisation) have common ideas and motives at the back of their actions. As far as I can tell, people tend to be individuals and have individual motives and ideas, regardless of their personal beliefs.
    2. Why did I create my site? Well, if you'd bothered to read it I guess you'd know by now. The bottom line, as I state quite clearly, is NOT to discredit Darwin as such, but to clarify and document the true level of his scientific knowledge and skill.
    3. You write:
    "There were many things that Darwin said in his books that have been invalidated since, where the science has moved on. That is what science does after all..."
    as though this were a self-evident, universally agreed fact.
    Well, sorry, you are incorrect in your assumption. Even college/university professors in the US (let alone teachers) are being persecuted on this score - NOT because they don't agree with evolution (because the ones who have written to me have all been (according to them) staunch believers in evolution), but because they dare to dispute the ongoing primacy of Darwin's work.
    4. "You seem to be particularly caught up in the issue of discrediting Darwin"
    Well, I appreciate that is apparently what you think you read, though I have to say the nature of your questions **suggests** that you didn't read very much. Either way, that isn't what I was trying to do.
    If Darwin has been appreciated for what he actually did, and evolutionists had all "moved on" as you suggest, Eiseley wouldn't have written his book and hence my site wouldn't exist.
    In fact this is most definitely NOT what has happened, otherwise why on earth do you suppose that one of the most aggressive groups of pro-evolution academics refer to themselves as Neo-Darwinists, and why are the MOST vociferous members of the group referred to by other (pro-evolution) academics as Ultra-Neo-Darwinists?
    The fact is, as I explain on my site, that evolutionary studies are no longer benefitting from Darwin and his ideas, on the contrary, the whole field seems bogged down in ridiculous disputes over Darwinian orthodoxy.
    5. "what would be accomplished about the science of evolution IF it was shown that Darwin cribbed all his notes from other sources and is only responsible for putting it all together in one piece?"
    Again, answered on my site, but since you didn't read that - it would bring Darwin and his work into perspective and HOPEFULLY evolutionists would at last move on for real, NOT just in theory.
    BTW, "evolution" is NOT a science, though **some** aspects of what is usually included under the "evolution" banner can certainly be investigated by the use of various branches of the sciences.
    Evolution is not a science for one very simple reason - the only universally agreed definition of "evolution" is:
    Evolution = Change
    And that's it! Once you go beyond that simple definition things start to get fuzzy.
    So is "change" a "science" - or is it a huge subject, parts of which can be investigated using scientific "instruments"?
    FWIW, NLP is very much about understanding and implementing psychological "change", but I still wouldn't try to claim it was therefore "scientific".
    I hope this answers your questions adequately. If not I respectfully suggest that you try reading the whole thing without prejudging the nature of what you are reading.
    Be well
    Andrew Bradbury

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 141 by RAZD, posted 01-24-2007 8:00 AM RAZD has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 146 by PaulK, posted 01-24-2007 9:25 AM AndyB has replied
     Message 148 by crashfrog, posted 01-24-2007 10:43 AM AndyB has replied
     Message 158 by RAZD, posted 01-24-2007 7:48 PM AndyB has not replied

      
    AndyB
    Inactive Member


    Message 145 of 200 (379461)
    01-24-2007 9:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 143 by AdminQuetzal
    01-24-2007 8:56 AM


    Re: To PaulK and AndyB
    Dear Mod
    "I hope you will take the opportunity to peruse other threads..."
    Don't need to. I'm completely in agreement with your comments and your request. I only interceded here because I found my name being bandied around.
    I'll be only too happy to abide by your "suggestions" (?). Indeed, you will find that in my answer to RAZD I have wrapped it up by returning to the original subject.
    Be well
    Andy Bradbury

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 143 by AdminQuetzal, posted 01-24-2007 8:56 AM AdminQuetzal has not replied

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17827
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 146 of 200 (379462)
    01-24-2007 9:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 144 by AndyB
    01-24-2007 9:13 AM


    Re: Why the issue about Darwin?
    quote:
    Evolution is not a science for one very simple reason - the only universally agreed definition of "evolution" is:
    Evolution = Change
    And that's it! Once you go beyond that simple definition things start to get fuzzy.
    So is "change" a "science" - or is it a huge subject, parts of which can be investigated using scientific "instruments"?
    According to dictionary.com "relativity" is "the state or fact of being relative". So it seems that all your points apply to Relativity as much as to Evolution. Does this mean that Relativity is not science ? I think that there are a good many physicists who would disagree with you.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 144 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 9:13 AM AndyB has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 151 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 12:35 PM PaulK has replied

      
    Admin
    Director
    Posts: 13038
    From: EvC Forum
    Joined: 06-14-2002
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 147 of 200 (379463)
    01-24-2007 9:27 AM


    Administrative Request
    This thread seems to be spiraling downward into personal squabbling. I'd appreciate it if members would make it very easy for me to tell who is originating the Forum Guidelines violations. Responding in kind makes this very difficult and means I have two choices: doing nothing, or suspending everyone involved. I don't plan on taking the former course of action.

    --Percy
    EvC Forum Director

    Replies to this message:
     Message 153 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 12:49 PM Admin has replied

      
    crashfrog
    Member (Idle past 1494 days)
    Posts: 19762
    From: Silver Spring, MD
    Joined: 03-20-2003


    Message 148 of 200 (379475)
    01-24-2007 10:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 144 by AndyB
    01-24-2007 9:13 AM


    Re: Why the issue about Darwin?
    Evolution is not a science for one very simple reason - the only universally agreed definition of "evolution" is:
    I don't know how you determine what definitions are "universally agreed", but the idea that scientists don't have any deeper understanding of evolution except as "change" is ludicrous and betrays a significant lack of research on your part.
    Obviously, in language, words are slightly fuzzy, and science is a lot more concerned with testing hypotheses and developing explanatory models than it is with developing the one true definition that everybody is supposed to memorize and never change. This is true of all scientific fields so, for any scientific term, there's no such thing as a truly "universally accepted definition."
    The fact that you would single out evolution and impeach it alone from this universal characteristic is further evidence that your arguments are driven entirely by ideology, rather than evidence. For my own part, I usually define evolution as:
    "The scientific understanding of the history and diversity of life on Earth as a result of descent with modification from a common ancestor through natural selection and random mutation, as well as other natural processes."
    But, really - why would scientists need to have a rigid definition of the term? What would they do with it? Pin it up on whiteboards? What would that accomplish?
    Everybody knows what evolution is - it's the scientific model for the history of life and the origin of species. And sometimes the word is appropriated to describe the history of other things that change over time, but that's just a metaphor. Regardless of how you state a definition of evolution, it always means the same thing when you're talking about living things - random mutation and natural selection causing changes to successive generations of organisms through time.
    Once you go beyond that simple definition things start to get fuzzy.
    The real world is fuzzy. If you're not comfortable with a little fuzz then you have no business in the sciences. Best to stick with theology, or philosophy, or economics, or any other completely made-up human endeavors that require absolutely no evidential basis for their reasoning.
    But to assert that something stops being a science just because of your ignorance is folly. Luckily, evolutionary biologists continue to get the work done, regardless of whether or not cranks on the internet think they can.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 144 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 9:13 AM AndyB has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 149 by Chiroptera, posted 01-24-2007 10:47 AM crashfrog has replied
     Message 152 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 12:41 PM crashfrog has replied

      
    Chiroptera
    Inactive Member


    Message 149 of 200 (379476)
    01-24-2007 10:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 148 by crashfrog
    01-24-2007 10:43 AM


    Re: Why the issue about Darwin?
    quote:
    The real world is fuzzy. If you're not comfortable with a little fuzz then you have no business in the sciences. Best to stick with theology, or philosophy, or economics, or any other completely made-up human endeavors that require absolutely no evidential basis for their reasoning.
    Or mathematics. That's what I did.
    Good post, by the way.

    But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 148 by crashfrog, posted 01-24-2007 10:43 AM crashfrog has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 150 by crashfrog, posted 01-24-2007 11:17 AM Chiroptera has not replied

      
    crashfrog
    Member (Idle past 1494 days)
    Posts: 19762
    From: Silver Spring, MD
    Joined: 03-20-2003


    Message 150 of 200 (379478)
    01-24-2007 11:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 149 by Chiroptera
    01-24-2007 10:47 AM


    Re: Why the issue about Darwin?
    Or mathematics. That's what I did.
    Wasn't it mathematicians who came up with so-called "fuzzy logic"? Plus, at least mathematics as a field has rigor. Not so with the fields I listed. In math, poor models are discarded and forgotten. In philosophy and theology and economics, poor models are enshrined.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 149 by Chiroptera, posted 01-24-2007 10:47 AM Chiroptera has not replied

      
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