Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-27-2019 4:00 AM
24 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Pressie (2 members, 22 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Upcoming Birthdays: ooh-child
Post Volume:
Total: 854,844 Year: 9,880/19,786 Month: 2,302/2,119 Week: 338/724 Day: 1/62 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
9Next
Author Topic:   YEC without the bible, possible?
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2982 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 1 of 133 (508959)
05-17-2009 3:34 PM


I notice that 99% of supporters of a young earth (most evangelical Christians) believe what they do based on a literal interpretation of Genesis. Most conversations I've had on the topic with Creo's seem to keep coming back to the first chapters of Genesis.

But what happens if we pull the rug out from under their feet? Suppose the bible was never written (or any religious document dealing with creation) and only observable evidence was available to us. Would there be sufficient reason for anyone to argue a young earth?

Now I realize this is a question about a hypothetical situation, but I'm addressing it mainly to young-earthers out there. Assuming you didn't have the bible, how convinced would you be of a young earth? Would you still seek evidence for it? Would you still oppose evolution?

I look forward to your replies.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Huntard, posted 05-18-2009 9:12 AM Meldinoor has responded
 Message 5 by GDR, posted 05-18-2009 5:40 PM Meldinoor has not yet responded
 Message 11 by lyx2no, posted 05-18-2009 6:08 PM Meldinoor has responded
 Message 17 by Minority Report, posted 05-25-2009 10:17 AM Meldinoor has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12602
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 2 of 133 (509044)
05-18-2009 8:32 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 468 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 3 of 133 (509054)
05-18-2009 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Meldinoor
05-17-2009 3:34 PM


I for one wouldn't know how it could exist without religion, since that is all that it is based on.

But perhpas the creationists could shed some light on the subject?


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Meldinoor, posted 05-17-2009 3:34 PM Meldinoor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Meldinoor, posted 05-18-2009 5:33 PM Huntard has not yet responded

    
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2982 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 4 of 133 (509094)
05-18-2009 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Huntard
05-18-2009 9:12 AM


I for one wouldn't know how it could exist without religion, since that is all that it is based on.
But perhpas the creationists could shed some light on the subject?

I agree. And it is my personal theory that most resident young earth creationists on this forum would not be defending their case if they didn't have a belief in the literal interpretation of Genesis.

If the bible had instead described a 14.5b year creation period, including millions of years of biological evolution, would they still be digging up "evidence" to support the idea of a young earth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Huntard, posted 05-18-2009 9:12 AM Huntard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by onifre, posted 05-18-2009 5:45 PM Meldinoor has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4826
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 5 of 133 (509095)
05-18-2009 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Meldinoor
05-17-2009 3:34 PM


Meldinoor writes:

I notice that 99% of supporters of a young earth (most evangelical Christians) believe what they do based on a literal interpretation of Genesis

Im curious as to how you come to the conclusion that 99% of evangelical Christians are young earth creationists. If I were to guess, as I presume you have done, I'd put it closer to 10% or less. It's actually primarily a North American belief. JMHO


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Meldinoor, posted 05-17-2009 3:34 PM Meldinoor has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by kuresu, posted 05-18-2009 5:46 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 9 by onifre, posted 05-18-2009 5:52 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1124 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 6 of 133 (509098)
05-18-2009 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Meldinoor
05-18-2009 5:33 PM


If the bible had instead described a 14.5b year creation period, including millions of years of biological evolution, would they still be digging up "evidence" to support the idea of a young earth?

I would say that whatever the Bible states, they'd go with.

The key point though, to support their argument, is that the Bible is quite vague in it's primitive attempt to describe our origin.

No time frame, no functinal biological processes, no mention of the laws of physics, etc. So this leaves it all to interpretation.

I don't know if there are any YEC's on this site with any real knowledge of science that would present you with a reasonable, scienctifc approach to their beliefs. I'd be curious to see what they have for "outside of the bible" evidence. My guess will be nothing.

Are there even YEC's on this site?


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Meldinoor, posted 05-18-2009 5:33 PM Meldinoor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Meldinoor, posted 05-18-2009 6:03 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
kuresu
Member (Idle past 686 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 7 of 133 (509099)
05-18-2009 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by GDR
05-18-2009 5:40 PM


How do you read that? Personally I read the statement as saying that most YECs are evangelical christians, not that most evangelical christians are YECs.

If Mel had instead written "...99% of evangelical christians (most of whom support YEC)..." I can see your reading, but as it stands, no.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GDR, posted 05-18-2009 5:40 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2982 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 8 of 133 (509100)
05-18-2009 5:47 PM


I just discovered another thread on this topic that seems to confirm my theory. I was surprised to see how in www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=12&t=191&m=1 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=12&t=191&m=1">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=12&t=191&m=1 some young-earthers admit that they believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis, but understand that observational evidence is to the contrary.

I'm curious as to how this kind of belief holds together. Do they see the world created in the bible as a different one than the one with the evidence in it? Do they believe that God planted evidence of an old earth deceitfully in order to "test" us?

Im curious as to how you come to the conclusion that 99% of evangelical Christians are young earth creationists. If I were to guess, as I presume you have done, I'd put it closer to 10% or less. It's actually primarily a North American belief. JMHO

You're right GDR, I guesstimated that number. And I was referring to the American situation. I know that European Christians are a lot more keen on accepting evolution. But I've looked up several polls that seem to show how almost 50% of the American population believe in a young earth. To me, that's pretty scary.

From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism)

As of 2008 a Gallup poll indicated that 50% of US adults agreed with the statement "human beings developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life." Whereas 44% of US adults agreed with the statement "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years."[26]

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Dr Jack, posted 05-18-2009 6:25 PM Meldinoor has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1124 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 9 of 133 (509101)
05-18-2009 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by GDR
05-18-2009 5:40 PM


Meldinoor writes:

I notice that 99% of supporters of a young earth (most evangelical Christians) believe what they do based on a literal interpretation of Genesis

GDR writes:

Im curious as to how you come to the conclusion that 99% of evangelical Christians are young earth creationists.

Well if that were his conclusion, then your curiosity would be warrented.

But it's not.

He said, excluding what's in parentheses: I notice that 99% of supporters of a young earth believe what they do based on a literal interpretation of Genesis.

Which, to include what's in parentheses, most Evangelical Christians do as well.

IOW, both YEC'ist AND Evangelical Christians, believe what they do based on a literal interpretation of Genesis.

- Oni


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GDR, posted 05-18-2009 5:40 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2982 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 10 of 133 (509103)
05-18-2009 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by onifre
05-18-2009 5:45 PM


The key point though, to support their argument, is that the Bible is quite vague in it's primitive attempt to describe our origin.

Is it vague though? Isn't that a point of contention among Christians? Young Earthers tend to argue that it's pretty simple and straightforward, seven actual days of creation, and the genealogies are accurate person for person records of the generations after creation. Christians who believe that the world is indeed 4.5b years old (me, for instance) tend to read it metaphorically.

But to get back on topic, I'd love to hear the opinions of some YECs on the OP question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by onifre, posted 05-18-2009 5:45 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 11 of 133 (509104)
05-18-2009 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Meldinoor
05-17-2009 3:34 PM


I'm Still Fuzzy
To clear this up for me, did you mean:
I notice that 99% of supporters of a young earth (mostly evangelical Christians) believe what they do based on a literal interpretation of Genesis.


It is far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them, as barbarians, to behave like civilized men.
Spock: Mirror Mirror

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Meldinoor, posted 05-17-2009 3:34 PM Meldinoor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Meldinoor, posted 05-18-2009 6:13 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2982 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 12 of 133 (509106)
05-18-2009 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by lyx2no
05-18-2009 6:08 PM


Re: I'm Still Fuzzy
To clear this up for me, did you mean:
I notice that 99% of supporters of a young earth (mostly evangelical Christians) believe what they do based on a literal interpretation of Genesis.

Yes. And at the time of writing, I also assumed that most American evangelicals were young earthers. However, I may have overestimated the prevalence of that belief based on personal experience. If someone has the correct numbers I'd be happy to see them.

Thanks


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by lyx2no, posted 05-18-2009 6:08 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

    
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 13 of 133 (509111)
05-18-2009 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Meldinoor
05-18-2009 5:47 PM


I just discovered another thread on this topic that seems to confirm my theory. I was surprised to see how in www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=12&t=191&m=1 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=12&t=191&m=1">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=12&t=191&m=1 some young-earthers admit that they believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis, but understand that observational evidence is to the contrary.
I'm curious as to how this kind of belief holds together. Do they see the world created in the bible as a different one than the one with the evidence in it? Do they believe that God planted evidence of an old earth deceitfully in order to "test" us?

I can't speak for any such people. But I have heard the view expressed that it's just a matter of us having not investigated fully enough and, with the right techniques, we'll find that science and Genesis point to the same conclusion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Meldinoor, posted 05-18-2009 5:47 PM Meldinoor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Meldinoor, posted 05-18-2009 6:27 PM Dr Jack has not yet responded

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2982 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 14 of 133 (509112)
05-18-2009 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Jack
05-18-2009 6:25 PM


I can't speak for any such people. But I have heard the view expressed that it's just a matter of us having not investigated fully enough and, with the right techniques, we'll find that science and Genesis point to the same conclusion.

Which again points to what I "theorized" in the OP. If you're right, their belief is 100% faith based and would fall apart without the bible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dr Jack, posted 05-18-2009 6:25 PM Dr Jack has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by lyx2no, posted 05-18-2009 6:58 PM Meldinoor has not yet responded

    
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2889 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 15 of 133 (509116)
05-18-2009 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Meldinoor
05-18-2009 6:27 PM


Highlander
If you're right, their belief is 100% faith based and would fall apart without the bible.
I'm not so sure of this myself, and think you've got the cart before the horse.

The average Joe doesn't really seem to understand vast amounts of time. 10,000 years is forever to most people. Take The Immortal, Connor MacLeod, for example. He's 450 years old. How could anyone consider that "immortal", for Pete's sake?

I think if the Bible didn't exist people would still intuit the age of the Earth in thousands of years, would write a book stating as much, definitely name it "The Book", and kill those who said otherwise.


It is far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them, as barbarians, to behave like civilized men.
Spock: Mirror Mirror

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Meldinoor, posted 05-18-2009 6:27 PM Meldinoor has not yet responded

  
1
23456
...
9Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019