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Author Topic:   Will scientists ever find the connection between the physical and metaphysical?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1 of 40 (329923)
07-08-2006 6:56 PM


I have nearly finished reading Lisa Randall's book "Warped Passages". It's a good book but I have to admit largely over my head. There was a statement in the liner that I found very interesting.
Lisa Randall writes:
We understand far more about the world than we did just a few short years ago - and yet we are more uncertain about the true nature of the universe than ever before. Have we reached a point of scientific discovery so advanced that the laws of physics as we know them are simply not sufficient? Will we all soon have to accept explanations that previously remained in the realm of science fiction?
I would like to add to the last sentence.
"Will we all soon have to accept explanations that previously remained in the realm of science fiction or the metaphysical?"
Gerald Shroeder in his book "The Hidden Face of God" connects science with the metaphysical by claiming amongst other things, as I understand him, that what is actually basic to the universe is particles of information. His thinking is obviously esoteric, but will it ever go beyond that?
There are others such as Alister McGrath of Oxford who has written "The Science of God", who are trying to connect the physical and the metaphysical.
Frankly I don't have sufficient knowledge to do anything much more than ask the question but I am interested in hearing people's opinions that are based on more than their theology. (I recognize of course that if one believes that the metaphysical doesn't exist they aren't about to believe that science will ever encounter it. )
The question then is; is it possible for scientific research to ever knowingly encounter the metaphysical?
I suggest "Is it science?"
Edited by GDR, : To suggest a forum
Edited by AdminPD, : Fix typo
Edited by GDR, : typo

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2006 1:26 AM GDR has replied
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4 of 40 (330021)
07-09-2006 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
07-09-2006 1:26 AM


crashfrog writes:
If that happened, wouldn't it, by definition, be physical? The problem I have here is the same problem I have with asking if "science can study the supernatural"; neither "metaphysical" or "supernatural" seem have definitions that would allow metaphysical or supernatural things to actually have any effect in the real world, yet somehow be beyond the realm of science.
I'm not sure that is necessarily true. I'm not suggesting that science would be able to study the metaphysical but that they might discover the point where the physical is connected to the metaphysical.
For example I found Gerald Schroeder's book, "The hidden Face of God" interesting. I'm not informed enough to critique the science but he is highly qualified. Here is a quote from the prologue of his book.
Gerald Shroeder writes:
A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. And more than that. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom.
This is just one scientist with a theory that may or may not be right. Science has speculated with string theory that each particle is in actuality tiny strings of energy. Shroeder goes one step further and suggests that the basis of that energy is information.
Let's assume Schroeder is correct. I think that we would agree that at some point science would be able to prove that all particles are tiny little bits of energy. Would the physical sciences be able to make that next step and determine that before a particle is a bit of energy it is actually a bit of information. If they could I would think that would mean that science had found the connection between the physical and the metaphysical.
This of course is just one man's theory. There may well be others. On the assumption that the metaphysical does exist, I would assume that at some point there must be a point of connection.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2006 1:26 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 07-09-2006 3:19 AM GDR has replied
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 Message 29 by randman, posted 07-09-2006 11:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 10 of 40 (330056)
07-09-2006 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
07-09-2006 3:19 AM


Percy writes:
In my opinion, the only way discussions like this that try to connect science to the metaphysical or to the supernatural can only continue while the definitions of metaphysical and supernatural are kept vague. As soon as you carefully nail down the definitions there can no longer be a discussion because the conclusions are obvious and derive from the definitions.
Any discussion of course has to assume that the metaphysical exists. It seems to me then that there is likely a point where the physical and the metaphysical meet. As a theist I contend that the two meet through our consciousness, which would be outside the realm of science, but does it also connect with everything physical more directly? I would imagine that if there is a point of connection it would have to be through the very small or the very large.
As for the very small, let's assume that at some point in the future some version of string theory is proven to be correct, and that all of creation is made up of bits of energy. (That almost sounds metaphysical itself. ) Wouldn't the next area of research be to determine what it is that causes these bits of energy to exhibit their individual characteristics. If this research found that there is no physical cause for characteristics then wouldn't the assumption be made that the cause must be metaphysical?
As for the very large we can go back to something cavediver said which I found fascinating. He contends, (I sure hope I have this right), that the 4D universe that we know is a actually a projection. I thought that maybe the projector would be where we would bump up against the metaphysical but he said "no" .His contention was that science would actually be able to study the projector. The question then would be what is giving the projector its characteristics.
It is almost unbelievable how far science has come in such a short period of time. Isn't it possible, or even likely, that at some point science will come to the end of what it can learn of the physical world. At that point wouldn't we have to ask the question of what lies beyond that. What causes particles to behave as they do or what causes the projector to project what it does. If it can be ascertained that there is no physical cause then wouldn't the cause have to be metaphysical?

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 07-09-2006 3:19 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 32 of 40 (330205)
07-10-2006 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
07-09-2006 10:01 AM


Thanks Percy for directing me to Charles Seife.
This is from a review of his book.
With his gift for making cutting-edge science accessible and entertaining, Seife explains how theorists came to understand that information is not a construct of the mind but a fundamental element of the physical world, something that sits inside every living cell and surrounds every black hole in the cosmos. It exists, like energy, even if there is no life to observe it. Starting with the breaking of the Enigma code during World War II and building momentum with the computer revolution, information theory has taken its place at the forefront of theoretical physics as scientists begin to use it to reconcile the paradoxes of relativity and quantum mechanics that have puzzled theorists since Einstein. Lucid and exhilarating, Decoding the Universe probes the mind-boggling advances that are taking us to the brink of a new understanding of the universe.
The question then becomes is information physical as has already been suggested or is it where the physical and the metaphysical meet and how do we determine which it is.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 07-09-2006 10:01 AM Percy has not replied

  
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