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Author Topic:   Sending myself crazy!
KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 7883 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 16 of 33 (6871)
03-14-2002 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by nator
03-14-2002 5:57 PM


I didn't ask you to turn off the "love" that you feel. I also didn't ask you to feel "less" faith.
I asked you to turn off yourfaith.
--you did ask me and i couldnt. I can manage to stop all of my thoughts but i couldnt just choose to believe that evolution occurs because its based on poor science and a few facts.
If you are in the group here which thinks that believing in God/Jesus is, indeed, a choice, you basically just said that you can't choose to not believe.
----Its not like science where your thoughts are refuted and proven. All of your faith eventually comes from you and you wont have any faith if you dont want to.
So, if you can't turn your faith off by choice, why do you think anyone can turn faith on by choice?
---you believe santa until your old enough to figure out that he doesnt exist or until someone tells you. Either way you have to reach a certain to maturity to understand this. Maybe you really aren't mentally equipped to love and have that much faith in someone.
You actually sidestepped answering that question directly by changing "faith" to "love", but I hope you will answer the question directly eventually.
---faith and love are both necessary so i think that theyre interchangable, lets just say i said both instead of just love.
Buddhists do all the time, so I don't know why you think it's a given.
--im not a buddhist
Like I said, you have had years and years of influence by family and churchgoing to infuence you. Why else would you think you are a "child of God", or what have you?
----ive said many times that i dont trust my family or people in general completely so how would my faith be affected by things i dont even agree with?
You were taught to think this.
--your hoping that i was and were all brainwashed whether we know it or not.
If you had been raised a Buddhist, thinking that one is a "child of God" is just a wierd concept and you wouldn't think that way at all.
-- probably but i dont agree with many buddhist teachings so i cant put myself in their viewpoint.
Right. You were trained to be a Christian as well as all of the moral training that accompanied the religion. That's my point. It was training, and you were rewarded for believing in a certain way.
---When was i given anything but a promise of salvation and bible? seems like to much trouble for just that. At least ill have some morals to live by and wont live like a prostitute to the world. i was taught the bible and i took it how i perceive it.
No, you don't know that at all.
---how do you know what i know? im not even entirely sure if God himself does.
That is like saying if I had been born into a vegetarian culture I would have known that there was something missing in my life; eating meat.
---well yes i would because i wouldnt be getting the correct diet and i would probably wonder what animals tasted like.
How would I miss something I had no knowledge of?
---This is a tough question but i cant see a world without Jesus.
Come on, now, can't you see that you are fighting against reason and logic by reaching to "I would have" type statements?
---This is my opinion and what i believe, have faith in, and love. its not fact and never will be, its not science its religion.
Isn't it quite reasonable to imagine that you would have been a Muslim if you had been raised in a Muslim country, or a Shinto or Hindu or Buddhist in an Asian country, etc.? Do you not think that most of the people following those religions are doing fine and probably don't feel like there is anything "missing" any more than most people in other countries and religions?
---This is very very arguable and it may be that theyre taught to expect some longing for their god when really it was theyre inner conscience longing for Christ.
After all, there are a lot more non-Christians in the world than Christians.
---This has no point whatsoever and i think that you know it.
------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi
[This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 03-14-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by nator, posted 03-14-2002 5:57 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by nator, posted 03-15-2002 6:55 PM KingPenguin has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 17 of 33 (6932)
03-15-2002 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by KingPenguin
03-14-2002 11:10 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
[B]I didn't ask you to turn off the "love" that you feel. I also didn't ask you to feel "less" faith.
I asked you to turn off yourfaith.
--you did ask me and i couldnt. I can manage to stop all of my thoughts but i couldnt just choose to believe that evolution occurs because its based on poor science and a few facts.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean you couldn't? I thought that belief was just a choice?
Also, what does evolution have to do with if you believe in God or not?
Also, the ToE is not based upon poor science and a few facts.
Unsupported, sweeping dismissals of this sort point much more to your ignorance than to anything lacking in science.
Either provide evidence of this poor science and show how all of Biology falls down in the lightest breeze because it is built upon such a shaky foundation, or stop saying things that you cannot back up in the least. It is very poor debating style.
quote:
If you are in the group here which thinks that believing in God/Jesus is, indeed, a choice, you basically just said that you can't choose to not believe.
----Its not like science where your thoughts are refuted and proven. All of your faith eventually comes from you and you wont have any faith if you dont want to.
We weren't talking about science. We were talking about the assertion that faith in God is a choice. I think that you are flat out wrong about choosing to have a belief, and you have yet to make a compelling argument that people can have a belief if they want to.
quote:
So, if you can't turn your faith off by choice, why do you think anyone can turn faith on by choice?
---you believe santa until your old enough to figure out that he doesnt exist or until someone tells you. Either way you have to reach a certain to maturity to understand this. Maybe you really aren't mentally equipped to love and have that much faith in someone.
Maybe your faith in God is the same as a child's faith in Santa.
Ever consider that you aren't mentally equipped to deal with that?
quote:
Buddhists do all the time, so I don't know why you think it's a given.
--im not a buddhist
So?
quote:
Like I said, you have had years and years of influence by family and churchgoing to infuence you. Why else would you think you are a "child of God", or what have you?
----ive said many times that i dont trust my family or people in general completely so how would my faith be affected by things i dont even agree with?
The people who raise you have a huge influence on you no matter if you "completely trust" them or not. I don't trust my mother much, but it would be silly of me to deny that she had an enormous influence upon the kind of person I turned out to be. I have had to counteract a lot of what she taught me about myself, because she was really destructive to my psyche, but that doesn't mean she wasn't influential.
quote:
You were taught to think this.
--your hoping that i was and were all brainwashed whether we know it or not.
I didn't say you were brainwashed. I said you were taught.
quote:
If you had been raised a Buddhist, thinking that one is a "child of God" is just a wierd concept and you wouldn't think that way at all.
-- probably but i dont agree with many buddhist teachings so i cant put myself in their viewpoint.
You can't put yourself into any viewpoint if you disagree with it? Wow, that is a very narrow way to experience life and a very poor way to understand people and cultures which are different.
Is your personal viewpoint so weak or restrictive that attempting to understand where someone else is coming from is too scary? Do you feel that putting yourself in anothers' viewpoint, just in an attempt at understanding, is too much of a threat to your own?
quote:
Right. You were trained to be a Christian as well as all of the moral training that accompanied the religion. That's my point. It was training, and you were rewarded for believing in a certain way.
---When was i given anything but a promise of salvation and bible? seems like to much trouble for just that. At least ill have some morals to live by and wont live like a prostitute to the world. i was taught the bible and i took it how i perceive it.
Your reward was approval from those who wanted you to believe a certain way. That is all a child ever really wants, is approval from their parents. You also get to be in groups of people who all think along the same lines and everyone pretty much agrees. It's much nicer to be accepted than to be rejected, isn't it? The emotional payoff is pretty good.
Also, you can't possibly think that following Christianity is the only way people can be raised with morals to live by, do you?
Morals don't come from God. They are human constructs.
quote:
No, you don't know that at all.
---how do you know what i know? im not even entirely sure if God himself does.
I am not talking about what you know now. I am talking about what you say you would know if you had been raised in a non-christian culture. You don't have any inkling of what you would be thinking, so don't try to say that you would.
quote:
That is like saying if I had been born into a vegetarian culture I would have known that there was something missing in my life; eating meat.
---well yes i would because i wouldnt be getting the correct diet and i would probably wonder what animals tasted like.
Um, how is vegetarianism not a "correct" diet? Why would you wonder what animals tased like if the concept of eating meat was never introduced to you? That's like wondering what fish tastes like when you live on top of a mountain.
quote:
How would I miss something I had no knowledge of?
---This is a tough question but i cant see a world without Jesus.
Just like someone of another religion can't see the world without their deity of choice. Don't you get it yet?
quote:
Isn't it quite reasonable to imagine that you would have been a Muslim if you had been raised in a Muslim country, or a Shinto or Hindu or Buddhist in an Asian country, etc.? Do you not think that most of the people following those religions are doing fine and probably don't feel like there is anything "missing" any more than most people in other countries and religions?
---This is very very arguable and it may be that theyre taught to expect some longing for their god when really it was theyre inner conscience longing for Christ.
Wow, that is SO arrogant. Perhaps the longing that any Christian might feel at any time is actually for Krishna, or is a supressed quest for enightenment in the Buddhist tradition.
quote:
After all, there are a lot more non-Christians in the world than Christians.
---This has no point whatsoever and i think that you know it.
The point is that the biggest determinant for one's religious views and traditions is where one is born.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by KingPenguin, posted 03-14-2002 11:10 PM KingPenguin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by nator, posted 03-24-2002 9:09 AM nator has not replied
 Message 20 by Darwood, posted 03-25-2002 11:43 PM nator has replied
 Message 21 by KingPenguin, posted 03-26-2002 12:10 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 33 (7707)
03-24-2002 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by nator
03-15-2002 6:55 PM


Just trying to bump this thread up...
KP, why don't you reply?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by nator, posted 03-15-2002 6:55 PM nator has not replied

  
Darwood
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 33 (7837)
03-25-2002 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by nator
03-11-2002 8:08 AM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
Ah, but you weren't born believing, were you? You have years and years of parental influence and churchgoing and instruction which have heavily influenced you.

in my case my parents dont go to church so therefore they couldnt influence my decision to go to church. It was my choice to believe in god. It was my choice to go to church. And you may say that even though it wasnt my parents who influenced me it could have been something else such as friends or something and i was just doing what all the other people were doing but thats not true. when i first started church and believing in god none of my friends went to the same church as me if they went to church at all and we never discussed god or religion anyhow. so i would say that this is an example of peoples own free will.
------------------
~~darWOOD~~

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by nator, posted 03-11-2002 8:08 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by nator, posted 03-27-2002 8:42 PM Darwood has replied

  
Darwood
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 33 (7846)
03-25-2002 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by nator
03-15-2002 6:55 PM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
You can't put yourself into any viewpoint if you disagree with it? Wow, that is a very narrow way to experience life and a very poor way to understand people and cultures which are different.
Is your personal viewpoint so weak or restrictive that attempting to understand where someone else is coming from is too scary? Do you feel that putting yourself in anothers' viewpoint, just in an attempt at understanding, is too much of a threat to your own?
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-16-2002]

Its not like u have alot of room to talk. This entire time all you talk about it how KP is wrong and try to find a way to make it seem like his ideas and beliefs are incorrect because they arent the same as yours. You criticise him because he said that he couldnt put himself into another persons viewpoint but you are being a hypocrite because you said "Do you feel that putting yourself in anothers' viewpoint, just in an attempt at understanding, is too much of a threat to your own?." and yet you didn't put yourself in his viepwoint... all you did was try to think of the next thing you can try to do to disprove his beliefs. How bout next time you be sure to practice what you preach.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by nator, posted 03-15-2002 6:55 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by nator, posted 03-27-2002 8:53 PM Darwood has replied

  
KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 7883 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 21 of 33 (7847)
03-26-2002 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by nator
03-15-2002 6:55 PM


"What do you mean you couldn't? I thought that belief was just a choice? "
-it is but once your set in your ways you generally arent able to toss them away without significant evidence.
"Also, what does evolution have to do with if you believe in God or not? "
--nothing
"Also, the ToE is not based upon poor science and a few facts. "
--matter of opinion
"Unsupported, sweeping dismissals of this sort point much more to your ignorance than to anything lacking in science. "
--read the last sentence of your next quote
"Either provide evidence of this poor science and show how all of Biology falls down in the lightest breeze because it is built upon such a shaky foundation, or stop saying things that you cannot back up in the least. It is very poor debating style. "
--i wasnt contesting biology. i am asking you to prove to me that evolution is a natural fact.How about it actually taking place?
"We weren't talking about science. We were talking about the assertion that faith in God is a choice. I think that you are flat out wrong about choosing to have a belief, and you have yet to make a compelling argument that people can have a belief if they want to. "
--can you choose to use your hand to itch your back? you can but you could always just not do it, that would of course be very bothering and get you quite agitated if you didnt.
"Maybe your faith in God is the same as a child's faith in Santa. "
--Innocent nonsupported faith that there is something worth having in life
"Ever consider that you aren't mentally equipped to deal with that? "
--Yes
"The people who raise you have a huge influence on you no matter if you "completely trust" them or not. I don't trust my mother much, but it would be silly of me to deny that she had an enormous influence upon the kind of person I turned out to be. I have had to counteract a lot of what she taught me about myself, because she was really destructive to my psyche, but that doesn't mean she wasn't influential. "
--a very influential part of your life, which would effect your opinion on everything.
"I didn't say you were brainwashed. I said you were taught. "
--taught to love one another. my faith and my soul is my own. my judgements may be influenced by all of my experiences but its still my conclusion and thought.
"You can't put yourself into any viewpoint if you disagree with it? Wow, that is a very narrow way to experience life and a very poor way to understand people and cultures which are different. "
--I can understand them but ill never belief or have faith in what they do.
"Is your personal viewpoint so weak or restrictive that attempting to understand where someone else is coming from is too scary? Do you feel that putting yourself in anothers' viewpoint, just in an attempt at understanding, is too much of a threat to your own? "
--no my viewpoint is mine. ive said a million times that ill believe anything scientifical if im provided with sufficient evidence for my tastes.
"Your reward was approval from those who wanted you to believe a certain way. That is all a child ever really wants, is approval from their parents. You also get to be in groups of people who all think along the same lines and everyone pretty much agrees. It's much nicer to be accepted than to be rejected, isn't it? The emotional payoff is pretty good. "
--actually the emotional payoff is pretty fricken crappy. It doesnt matter what group your in most likely at least one has other motives and thoughts than your own. I know probably more rejection that i do acception and this is my life not yours. so stay out my businness.
"Also, you can't possibly think that following Christianity is the only way people can be raised with morals to live by, do you? "
--Well yes i can since my faith and morals come from Christianity but a suppose that there are a few good samaritans around.
"Morals don't come from God. They are human constructs. "
--Oh im sure humans were just willing to be decent on their own. That is also a matter of belief.
"I am not talking about what you know now. I am talking about what you say you would know if you had been raised in a non-christian culture. You don't have any inkling of what you would be thinking, so don't try to say that you would. "
--No i wouldnt but i was of course raised this way and this is who i am.
"Um, how is vegetarianism not a "correct" diet? Why would you wonder what animals tased like if the concept of eating meat was never introduced to you? That's like wondering what fish tastes like when you live on top of a mountain. "
--Humans have a tremendous amount of curiousity, look at science for craps sake. That is a really poor analogy by the way. Youd still have other animals to eat and you wouldnt be able to live on a remote area of a amount for very long, especially without seeing any animal life.
"Just like someone of another religion can't see the world without their deity of choice. Don't you get it yet? Wow, that is SO arrogant. Perhaps the longing that any Christian might feel at any time is actually for Krishna, or is a supressed quest for enightenment in the Buddhist tradition. "
-- Whenever i pray to Jesus or attend church that longing is greatly lessened for a time. Just seeing the word Jesus can make me content, no other religion has effected me in that way.
"The point is that the biggest determinant for one's religious views and traditions is where one is born."
--there is still a chance that you will be born to atheists of the local religion that your area follows. You might then be able to come across a missionary or just live as an atheist.
------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by nator, posted 03-15-2002 6:55 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by no2creation, posted 03-26-2002 11:55 PM KingPenguin has not replied

  
no2creation
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 33 (7889)
03-26-2002 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by KingPenguin
03-26-2002 12:10 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
[b]"What do you mean you couldn't? I thought that belief was just a choice? "
-it is but once your set in your ways you generally arent able to toss them away without significant evidence.[/QUOTE]
[/b]
All we are trying to demonstrate is that, for many of us we CAN't BELIEVE. Not because we choose NOT to believe, but simply because our minds do not let us believe. I HAVE TRIED TO BELIEVE. Believing in something IS NOT A DIRECT CHOICE OR DECISION. It is a result of all the information that has passed through our 'Melons'. [QUOTE][b]
"Also, what does evolution have to do with if you believe in God or not? "
--nothing
"Also, the ToE is not based upon poor science and a few facts. "
--matter of opinion [/QUOTE]
[/b]Not sure why KP has to add ToE to this argument. [QUOTE][b]
"Unsupported, sweeping dismissals of this sort point much more to your ignorance than to anything lacking in science. "
--read the last sentence of your next quote [/QUOTE]
[/b]And? [QUOTE][b]
"Either provide evidence of this poor science and show how all of Biology falls down in the lightest breeze because it is built upon such a shaky foundation, or stop saying things that you cannot back up in the least. It is very poor debating style. "
--i wasnt contesting biology. i am asking you to prove to me that evolution is a natural fact.How about it actually taking place?
"We weren't talking about science. We were talking about the assertion that faith in God is a choice. I think that you are flat out wrong about choosing to have a belief, and you have yet to make a compelling argument that people can have a belief if they want to. "
--can you choose to use your hand to itch your back? you can but you could always just not do it, that would of course be very bothering and get you quite agitated if you didnt. [/QUOTE]
[/b]Lets skip all the ToE stuff shall we? Since it has no impact on whether I believe in God or not. [QUOTE][b]
"Maybe your faith in God is the same as a child's faith in Santa. "
--Innocent nonsupported faith that there is something worth having in life
"Ever consider that you aren't mentally equipped to deal with that? "
--Yes
"The people who raise you have a huge influence on you no matter if you "completely trust" them or not. I don't trust my mother much, but it would be silly of me to deny that she had an enormous influence upon the kind of person I turned out to be. I have had to counteract a lot of what she taught me about myself, because she was really destructive to my psyche, but that doesn't mean she wasn't influential. "
--a very influential part of your life, which would effect your opinion on everything.
"I didn't say you were brainwashed. I said you were taught. "
--taught to love one another. my faith and my soul is my own. my judgements may be influenced by all of my experiences but its still my conclusion and thought. [/QUOTE]
[/b]It is your conclusion that is NOT by choice. Do you see this yet? [QUOTE][b]
"You can't put yourself into any viewpoint if you disagree with it? Wow, that is a very narrow way to experience life and a very poor way to understand people and cultures which are different. "
--I can understand them but ill never belief or have faith in what they do.
"Is your personal viewpoint so weak or restrictive that attempting to understand where someone else is coming from is too scary? Do you feel that putting yourself in anothers' viewpoint, just in an attempt at understanding, is too much of a threat to your own? "
--no my viewpoint is mine. ive said a million times that ill believe anything scientifical if im provided with sufficient evidence for my tastes. [/QUOTE]
[/b]EXACTLY! Now those so called 'TASTES' is what I'm talking about. These are the reasons why you CAN NOT choose to believe. I have searched for the belief in God, but my 'TASTES' do not allow me to believe. These TASTES are not by choice, thus the choice to believe in something is wrong! You do not choose to believe. Are we getting anywhere yet? [QUOTE][b]
"Your reward was approval from those who wanted you to believe a certain way. That is all a child ever really wants, is approval from their parents. You also get to be in groups of people who all think along the same lines and everyone pretty much agrees. It's much nicer to be accepted than to be rejected, isn't it? The emotional payoff is pretty good. "
--actually the emotional payoff is pretty fricken crappy. It doesnt matter what group your in most likely at least one has other motives and thoughts than your own. I know probably more rejection that i do acception and this is my life not yours. so stay out my businness. [/QUOTE]
[/b]Not sure how schraf is in your business. But I think all she is trying to point out is some of the reasons why people may believe rather than not believe. Acceptance vs Rejection. Has absolutely nothing to due with your 'business'. [QUOTE][b]
"Also, you can't possibly think that following Christianity is the only way people can be raised with morals to live by, do you? "
--Well yes i can since my faith and morals come from Christianity but a suppose that there are a few good samaritans around. [/QUOTE]
[/b]Maybe your morals have come from Christianity, but for many others, they come from other sources i.e. parents.
quote:

"Morals don't come from God. They are human constructs. "
--Oh im sure humans were just willing to be decent on their own. That is also a matter of belief.
"I am not talking about what you know now. I am talking about what you say you would know if you had been raised in a non-christian culture. You don't have any inkling of what you would be thinking, so don't try to say that you would. "
--No i wouldnt but i was of course raised this way and this is who i am.
"Um, how is vegetarianism not a "correct" diet? Why would you wonder what animals tased like if the concept of eating meat was never introduced to you? That's like wondering what fish tastes like when you live on top of a mountain. "
--Humans have a tremendous amount of curiousity, look at science for craps sake. That is a really poor analogy by the way. Youd still have other animals to eat and you wouldnt be able to live on a remote area of a amount for very long, especially without seeing any animal life.
"Just like someone of another religion can't see the world without their deity of choice. Don't you get it yet? Wow, that is SO arrogant. Perhaps the longing that any Christian might feel at any time is actually for Krishna, or is a supressed quest for enightenment in the Buddhist tradition. "
-- Whenever i pray to Jesus or attend church that longing is greatly lessened for a time. Just seeing the word Jesus can make me content, no other religion has effected me in that way.
"The point is that the biggest determinant for one's religious views and traditions is where one is born."
--there is still a chance that you will be born to atheists of the local religion that your area follows. You might then be able to come across a missionary or just live as an atheist.

I fail to see how believing in God is a decision or choice. I am not here to say your belief in God is wrong, but that your belief in God is not a choice you make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by KingPenguin, posted 03-26-2002 12:10 AM KingPenguin has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 23 of 33 (7923)
03-27-2002 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Darwood
03-25-2002 6:51 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Darwood:
in my case my parents dont go to church so therefore they couldnt influence my decision to go to church. It was my choice to believe in god. It was my choice to go to church. And you may say that even though it wasnt my parents who influenced me it could have been something else such as friends or something and i was just doing what all the other people were doing but thats not true. when i first started church and believing in god none of my friends went to the same church as me if they went to church at all and we never discussed god or religion anyhow. so i would say that this is an example of peoples own free will.

Why did you choose Christianity as your choice of religion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Darwood, posted 03-25-2002 6:51 PM Darwood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Darwood, posted 03-29-2002 11:11 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 24 of 33 (7924)
03-27-2002 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Darwood
03-25-2002 11:43 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Darwood:
Its not like u have alot of room to talk. This entire time all you talk about it how KP is wrong and try to find a way to make it seem like his ideas and beliefs are incorrect because they arent the same as yours. You criticise him because he said that he couldnt put himself into another persons viewpoint but you are being a hypocrite because you said "Do you feel that putting yourself in anothers' viewpoint, just in an attempt at understanding, is too much of a threat to your own?." and yet you didn't put yourself in his viepwoint... all you did was try to think of the next thing you can try to do to disprove his beliefs. How bout next time you be sure to practice what you preach.
LOL!, I have plenty of room to talk, thank you.
I am asking very probing questions, it's true, but this is a debate board, after all. I am not being abusive, I am not unresponsive, and I am quite willing to examine all evidence and arguments that anyone proposes in support of their position. If you have discomfort with debate, then I suggest you learn to not take things personally.
The major thrusts of this discussion are my contention that the religious belifs and traditions that most people hold to are determined by the culture in which they live, and that one cannot simply choose to believe in God.
So far, KP, has not provided very convincing arguments to counter either of my arguments.
Instead of inaccurately chastizing me for being a big meanie (translation: good debater), why don't you be of some real help to KP and provide some well-thought out counterarguments to what I have put forward.
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Darwood, posted 03-25-2002 11:43 PM Darwood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Darwood, posted 03-29-2002 11:02 AM nator has replied

  
Darwood
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 33 (7984)
03-29-2002 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by nator
03-27-2002 8:53 PM


I wasnt trying to help KP. i was just stating the fact that if you are going to talk smack about someone not being able to look at ideas through someone elses viewpoint that you shouldnt go out and do the same thing that you accused them of. Yes i know this is a debate board but is it too hard for you to look at someones ideas and actually consider them instead of just looking for a way to try and prove them wrong? True, without arguing its not a debate but you can still argue and see where they are coming from at the same time. I think that all you are interested in is arguing with someone and your not really interested in getting your point across. Also, i wasnt trying to portray you as a "big meanie", as you so maturely stated, i was just saying that you should follow your own advice, which is some that you must really believe in considering that you wrote two paragraphs saying how important it is. you get upset about what i say and to try and contridict me just because i tried to show you that you are guilty of doing the same as he is. It also accures to me that if you were such a "good debater" you would have been able to show your opinion without having gone as low in your response as to try and portray me as some immature, stupid person by falsly stating that i implied that you were a "big meanie". i never said anything like that, all i wanted was for you to realize what you had done and maybe it would help out some other time... unless you like being a hypocrite.
------------------
~~darWOOD~~

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by nator, posted 03-27-2002 8:53 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by nator, posted 03-30-2002 8:13 AM Darwood has not replied

  
Darwood
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 33 (7985)
03-29-2002 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by nator
03-27-2002 8:42 PM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
The major thrusts of this discussion are my contention that the religious belifs and traditions that most people hold to are determined by the culture in which they live, and that one cannot simply choose to believe in God.
Why did you choose Christianity as your choice of religion?

You have a point in saying that your surroundings do have part of what people believe in... but its not like you dont have a choice. The fact that the only churches around here are christian probably is a part of the reason why i chose to be christian, but i could have chosen to not be religious at all. i chose to first start going to a christian churche because thats whats around but i didnt have to believe in it and i could have stopped and looked up other religions by using libraries or the internet. It was a choice to have this religion and it is a choice to stay in this religion and its a choice to have whatever beliefs you have. Everyone has thier beliefs because thats what they chose to believe in.
------------------
~~darWOOD~~

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by nator, posted 03-27-2002 8:42 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by joz, posted 03-29-2002 12:10 PM Darwood has not replied
 Message 28 by no2creation, posted 03-29-2002 12:49 PM Darwood has not replied
 Message 31 by nator, posted 03-30-2002 8:21 AM Darwood has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 33 (7986)
03-29-2002 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Darwood
03-29-2002 11:11 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Darwood:
Everyone has thier beliefs because thats what they chose to believe in.

OK bud tell me how I can choose to become a christian?
And I don`t mean lip service here I mean actually believing....
Hell I`ll widen the challenge to any religion that I don`t believe (hint I`m an atheist)...
If you can`t its a pretty good indication that belief is non elective.....
Oh and don`t just say by going to church or by reading the bible, that falls under the umbrella of lip service untill I have chosen to believe...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Darwood, posted 03-29-2002 11:11 AM Darwood has not replied

  
no2creation
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 33 (7988)
03-29-2002 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Darwood
03-29-2002 11:11 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Darwood:
Everyone has thier beliefs because thats what they chose to believe in.

So tell me, can you choose your emotions then? Also, how come I can't choose to believe like you? I mean, I have tried to believe. I have attended church, read the bible, went to bible study groups. And for some reason my mind will not allow me to believe in it. IT JUST DOESN'T REGISTER. Do you choose not to believe in Santa Claus? If so, what were the events leading up to this decision. And if it were a decision can you choose to believe in Santa Claus again. I mean, if its a choice/decision you should be able to choose to believe in him.
Faith, Love, Belief, they are all NOT by choice. The choices that you make are: Should I meet this person today? Should I read this today? Does this interest me? Do I want to learn more? You can choose and make a decision on each of these questions, and the information you gain from each of these experiences will influence what you believe in.
Do you get it yet? Or are you still having some trouble understanding this simple concept?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Darwood, posted 03-29-2002 11:11 AM Darwood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by nator, posted 03-30-2002 8:26 AM no2creation has replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 33 (7990)
03-29-2002 1:34 PM


Something just occured to me, maybe KP et al feel that they have to choose to be christians (and creationists) because if they were to merely look at the evidence they could not honestly reach the same conclusion...
IOW they CHOOSE a preconcieved notion of what is and then ignore any and all evidence that disputes this world view....
Is this the sort of choice you mean?
I am being quite serious here so please don`t take this as some sort of studied insult, this is the only way I can concieve of a choice to believe....

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 30 of 33 (8013)
03-30-2002 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Darwood
03-29-2002 11:02 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Darwood:
[b]I wasnt trying to help KP. i was just stating the fact that if you are going to talk smack about someone not being able to look at ideas through someone elses viewpoint that you shouldnt go out and do the same thing that you accused them of.[/QUOTE]
What makes you think I can't look at things through another's viewpoint? Seriously, I really don't know why you would come to this conclusion. I certainly can and do understand KP's viewpoint. I am just attempting to get KP to stretch a little.
quote:
Yes i know this is a debate board but is it too hard for you to look at someones ideas and actually consider them instead of just looking for a way to try and prove them wrong?
Look, did you read my last message? I said that I was quite willing to consider all other evidence and arguments in support of another's position, and I do. I also said that KP hasn't presented very compelling counterarguments to mine, but I have certainly considered them. I have simply come to different conclusions, which are also, I think, the more logical, realistic ones.
quote:
True, without arguing its not a debate but you can still argue and see where they are coming from at the same time.
I quite agree.
quote:
I think that all you are interested in is arguing with someone and your not really interested in getting your point across.
Look, it's KP who claimed that belief in God was a choice, not those of us who are disagreeing. We have all given very compelling arguments for why and how people cannot choose to believe in God, and all that KP has done to support his position is to simply repeat his original claim over and over again. Who is not interested in proving their point again?
quote:
Also, i wasnt trying to portray you as a "big meanie", as you so maturely stated, i was just saying that you should follow your own advice, which is some that you must really believe in considering that you wrote two paragraphs saying how important it is. you get upset about what i say and to try and contridict me just because i tried to show you that you are guilty of doing the same as he is.
Goodness, I am hardly upset! LOL
Oh, and I contradicted you because you were wrong.
[QUOTE]It also accures to me that if you were such a "good debater" you would have been able to show your opinion without having gone as low in your response as to try and portray me as some immature, stupid person by falsly stating that i implied that you were a "big meanie". i never said anything like that, all i wanted was for you to realize what you had done and maybe it would help out some other time... unless you like being a hypocrite.
[/b]
You bristle at my idea that you think I am a "big meanie", and you say that I portray you in a false way, because "you never implied that".
Nearly simultaneously, you say that I portray you as an "immature, stupid person", which of course shows that you are doing the same kind of false portrayal that you accuse me of doing.
The irony of this last part is just too delicious.
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Darwood, posted 03-29-2002 11:02 AM Darwood has not replied

  
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