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Author Topic:   The phrase "Evolution is a fact"
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 48 of 217 (489666)
11-29-2008 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Beretta
11-29-2008 1:26 AM


Re: Is it a fact?
Taz writes:
Do you or do you not agree that the allele frequency of a population changes over time?
Do you accept Taz's definition of evolution above?
Beretta writes:
I think it can only be decided upon once the proper definitions are given. Are you talking about macro or micro evolution?
Beretta writes:
There has to be a clear division and specification about what is meant by evolution -if it is not specified, it cannot be said to be true or false.
How do you define macro-evolution in terms of the allele frequency of a population? How much change is required for macro-evolution to have occurred by any definition?
If you cannot define macro-evolution in these terms on what basis do you conclude that "macro-evolution" is anything more than a made up term to describe lots of "micro-evolution"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Beretta, posted 11-29-2008 1:26 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Beretta, posted 11-29-2008 7:17 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 54 of 217 (489682)
11-29-2008 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Beretta
11-29-2008 7:17 AM


Re: Is it a fact?
Taz writes:
Do you or do you not agree that the allele frequency of a population changes over time?
Do you accept Taz's definition of evolution above?
Not as such. Given observable experimental limitations, perhaps, but not in the unlimited sense. That would require a faith I do not possess.
OK. So if evolution is not the change of allele frequencies in a population over time what is it?
Are you suggesting that there is a limit to allele frequency change in a population such that "macro-evolution" is not possible?
Or are you claiming that there is another definition of evolution that has this built-in restriction that makes "macro-evolution" impossible? If so what is this alternate definition?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Beretta, posted 11-29-2008 7:17 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Beretta, posted 11-29-2008 8:24 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 62 of 217 (489709)
11-29-2008 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Beretta
11-29-2008 8:24 AM


Re: What is evolution?
However innocuous the definition might sound, the implication behind Darwinism is that all organisms originated from a common ancestor over millions of years. That is, mutations, gene duplication mistakes, and natural selection not only lead to changes in allele frequencies, but also caused bacteria to turn into men with time.
So we move from fact to supposition or fiction depending on whether it is true or not.
So evolution is perhaps more aptly described as a limited change in allele frequencies over time. A cake mix changes over time in the oven - so while we admit change, we know that it has limits as it's ingredients only allow it to change into a cake.
Dog genes have instructions to make dogs with varying allele frequencies; the same for human genes and for everything else.
Fine. So you agree that evolution is change in allele frequency over time. You just assert that there are limits to this change.
What is this limit? On what grounds do you conclude that this limit exists?

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 Message 56 by Beretta, posted 11-29-2008 8:24 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Beretta, posted 11-30-2008 2:00 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 86 of 217 (489856)
11-30-2008 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Beretta
11-30-2008 2:00 AM


Re: On what grounds
Straggler writes:
Fine. So you agree that evolution is change in allele frequency over time. You just assert that there are limits to this change.
What is this limit? On what grounds do you conclude that this limit exists?
Beretta writes:
On the grounds of experimentation that only ever demonstrates negative mutational change and no increase in information content. How is it that we can demonstrate lots of negative informational changes but no increase in information ever? Until I see that limit breached, I choose to stick with the evidence and curb my imagination.
You are claiming that there is a limit.
Yet there is no experimental evidence of a limit.
Whilst there is a mountain of paleontological evidence, prediction and discovery that strongly indicates that the limit you assert does not exist.
So on what basis does this limit exist?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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 Message 73 by Beretta, posted 11-30-2008 2:00 AM Beretta has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 99 of 217 (515063)
07-15-2009 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Peepul
07-15-2009 9:23 AM


Macro Micro
Overall I take your point, Rrhain. However, I don't believe the occurrence of reproductive isolation after 13 generations would correspond to the use of the word macroevolution by creationists.
I guess the obvious question to ask here is what does the word "macroevolution" mean when used by creationists? Is it defined?
Where is the dividing line between "macro" and "micro" evolution as conceived by creationsist? If creationists cannot define such a distinction why do they even think such a dividing line must exist?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Peepul, posted 07-15-2009 9:23 AM Peepul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Peepul, posted 07-15-2009 9:38 AM Straggler has not replied

  
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