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Author Topic:   The definition of atheism
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 46 of 101 (225084)
07-21-2005 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by kongstad
07-21-2005 5:52 AM


Re: A true dicotemy
Kongstad writes:
The strong atheist has been exposed to the concept of a god, but believes that such a thing does not exist. The weak atheist, like the newborn child, does not hold a belief in any gods.
That must put me somewhere in the middle then.
I have most certainly been exposed to the concept of god yet have reached the position where I hold no belief in either his existence or non-existence. I hold to a tentative conclusion that based on the available evidence (or lack thereof) of his existence, that there is no god. Does that make me a middle of the road atheist? an agnostic? a scientist with a "theory of the non-existence of god" (not really a feasible concept I know) that has yet to be falsified?
As Catholic Scientist said, do you actually see a difference between "absence of belief" and "belief of absence".
Even my own wife can't or won't see that the two concepts are totally different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by kongstad, posted 07-21-2005 5:52 AM kongstad has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by kongstad, posted 07-21-2005 10:06 AM PurpleYouko has replied

  
kongstad
Member (Idle past 2870 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 47 of 101 (225093)
07-21-2005 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by PurpleYouko
07-21-2005 9:09 AM


Re: A true dicotemy
Hi
The Weak atheist will hold the position of nonbelief in either the existence or non-existence of god.
So by definition a newborn is a weak atheist. But a weak atheist can just as well have met the concept of a god, but just not formed any belief in its existence. As long as the person does not believe in any gods, he or she is an atheist.
/Soren

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 9:09 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 10:26 AM kongstad has not replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 48 of 101 (225099)
07-21-2005 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by kongstad
07-21-2005 10:06 AM


Re: A true dicotemy
Hi Kongstad
As long as the person does not believe in any gods, he or she is an atheist.
That has always been pretty much my view on the subject too. Thanks for confirming that I am indeed an atheist.
PY

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 49 of 101 (225106)
07-21-2005 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by PurpleYouko
07-20-2005 7:25 PM


Re: This atheist agrees.
Thanks for your reply.
purple youko writes:
Sure I realize that. Knowing anything for certain is impossible IMO.
Well there is some knowlege that can be known for certain and is unwavering such as mathmatical proofs.
purple youko writes:
I can see where you are coming from but this is where I disagree with you. I don't think belief is necessary at all.
I am beginning to BELIEVE you are on crack.
This is the very statement that provoked me to respond to you in the first place. And after all that tirade and you saying..I agree and" I see where you are coming from" ; you turn around and type the same initial statement. So obviously you do not understand my point.
Here is is a common definition of the word :
BELIEF: 1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: "My belief in you is strong as ever."
2.Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validy of something: "His explanation of what happened defies belief."
3.Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenants accepted by a group of persons.
If it was not for belief we would be paralyzed by the inability to accept data and premises based only on mathmatics and logic.Unless of course your from the planet Vulcan.
purple youko writes:
I do understand what you are trying to say....
I do not think you do and I am not "trying" to say it I AM saying it.
purple youko writes:
...but I just don't see any degree of absolute certainty about anything, anywhere, anytime, anyhow.
Thats fine if your brain washed by the thought police but I am certain that 1+1=2.
purple youko writes:
Without unfounded certainty there is simply no belief.
Without unfounded certainty there is no belief? That is a ridiculous statement. One does NOT have to have certainty to BELIEVE something. Many beliefs are held by people that are not based on facts. Have you ever heard of the word faith?
You are incorrect about beliefs. Belief is a necessary element in how humans make decisions. It is not the only element,
deductive reasoning, logic, mathmatics, scientific methodology are all equally important as well. But to dogmatically dimiss belief as unnecessary is somewhat arrogant. IMO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-20-2005 7:25 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 11:35 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 50 of 101 (225112)
07-21-2005 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by 1.61803
07-21-2005 10:42 AM


definition of belief.
It's all in the definition of the word.
I will leave out number one as it isn't really relevent since it involves a completely different usage of the word belief.
2.Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validy of something: "His explanation of what happened defies belief."
3.Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenants accepted by a group of persons.
"Conviction in the truth", "Accepted as true"
How can any of us objectively know that anything is true?
Sure there may be other possible meanings of the word belief but as I stated earlier, these are the meanings that I assume when I use the term.
When I say I see what you are saying I mean that I understand your logic but that I think that you are not applying the same definition to the term belief as I am.
Without unfounded certainty there is no belief? That is a ridiculous statement. One does NOT have to have certainty to BELIEVE something. Many beliefs are held by people that are not based on facts. Have you ever heard of the word faith?
My statement was ridiculous?
Yours is self contradictory using the above definition of belief.
In the first part you say, "One does NOT have to have certainty to BELIEVE something., Do you mean to tell me that you can believe something without being certain of it? How the heck is it belief then? I would call that a tentative acceptance of it.
Belief requires that something is "accepted as true" and "truth" is an unwavering absolute. There are no degrees of truth. Something is either true or false and not some gray area in between
"Faith" is the absolute epitomy of certainty in the absence of proof. Anyone who truly believes in a god has just such a conviction of the truth of their position without any real proof. They are certain. They believe. If they lose that certainty then they are often well on the road to becoming atheists.
Been there. Done that. Bought the T-shirt.
To me, belief and faith are pretty much interchangable terms.
In short, yes you DO have to have certainty in something in order to BELIEVE it since BELIEF directly implies an ACCEPTANCE OF TRUTH.
If you want to argue for a different definition of BELIEF then that is a completely different subject but under the definition stated above your statement is blatently false.
I am beginning to BELIEVE you are on crack.
And I am beginning to reach the tentative conclusion that you are being awkward just for the heck of it. You know full well what I mean.
Thats fine if your brain washed by the thought police but I am certain that 1+1=2.
OK then prove it! Math is just a construct to help us understand things. I vaguely remember seeing a mathematical 'proof' that showed that 1+1 actually didn't make 2 in every case. Wish I could remember where.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by 1.61803, posted 07-21-2005 10:42 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 11:46 AM PurpleYouko has replied
 Message 74 by 1.61803, posted 07-22-2005 11:03 AM PurpleYouko has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 51 of 101 (225116)
07-21-2005 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by PurpleYouko
07-21-2005 11:35 AM


Re: definition of belief.
Your view seems to be very odd. I'd say "I beleive..." to indicate a lack of certainty (as opposed to "I know...").
If to beleive means to "accept as true" then if I tentatively accept something as true then I tentatively believe it - by definition. Even if you insist on a binary logic that has truth as an absolute, it does not mean that the acceptance of a statement as true has to be absolute.
So I simply cannot understand why you would insist that belief must represent absolute certainty. Such a claim is absolutely contrary to the usage I am familiar with, and not required by the quoted definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 11:35 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 12:33 PM PaulK has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 52 of 101 (225126)
07-21-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by PaulK
07-21-2005 11:46 AM


Re: definition of belief.
I'd say "I beleive..." to indicate a lack of certainty (as opposed to "I know...").
So would most people. I probably would (and in fact do) myself in every day life. It is only when I really examine the definitions that I find myself thinking that this is incorrect.
This is my line of reasoning.
Given that TRUE is a boolean concept (true or false) and that believe is defined as accept as true then that would mean that both accept as true and believe are also boolean concepts with no varying degrees existing between absolute TRUE and absolute FALSE.
In this scenario "tentative acceptance of truth" is not a valid concept. It would be like being a little bit pregnant.
One may tentatively accept a theory as being probably TRUE since that does not imply actual TRUTH but rather allows one to remain in a state of non decision with a tendancy towards absolute TRUTH. What you cannot do is assign faith or belief to it without complete certainty of truth.
I have found a whole load of definitions of the word TRUTH. Most, but not all, state it as an absolute. If you chose a non-absolute meaning then my logic above is not going to apply.
Here are a few of them.
Truth:
1 a fact that has been verified.
2 conformity to reality or actuality
3 the quality of nearness to the truth or the true value (this one could work the way that you stated but it appears to equate accuracy with truth)"accuracy: the quality of nearness to the truth or the true value; "he was beginning to doubt the accuracy of his compass"; "the lawyer questioned the truth of my account" (actually still sounds like absolute TRUTH to me)
Most people very likely do not apply the absolute meaning to either TRUTH or BELIEF, particularly in every day life. I don't myself most of the time. Quite possibly not doing so rigorously could be the cause of a whole lot of miscomunication.
I would like to see somebody write a computer program and assign a value of "almost certain" to a boolean variable. Not gonna happen!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 11:46 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 12:39 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 53 of 101 (225128)
07-21-2005 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by PurpleYouko
07-21-2005 12:33 PM


Re: definition of belief.
As I pointed out whether or not "true" is a boolean concept, the question is whether acceptance has to be purely binary - absolute or not at all. If not then there is nothing wrong with the concept of "tentative belief" since it is the "acceptance" that is tentative, not the actual truth of the statement. (and I woudl add that if the actual truth of the statement were at issue it would not be possible to beleive a falsehood).

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 Message 52 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 12:33 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 1:12 PM PaulK has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 54 of 101 (225135)
07-21-2005 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by PaulK
07-21-2005 12:39 PM


Re: definition of belief.
I will grant you that the term acceptance does not have to be binary under all definitions. My argument only applies to the most absolute meaning of the word. ie. "accept as TRUE"
Also the word belief doe not always have to be absolute.
Actual dictionary definitions of both words vary from absolute to tentative.
You are quite correct in saying that if a non-absolute meaning of belief is used then there is nothing wrong with the concept of tentative belief.
(and I woudl add that if the actual truth of the statement were at issue it would not be possible to beleive a falsehood).
Quite true (tentatively that would be ) but since I never claimed anything about the actual truth of anything, also irrelevent.
All this started from a perspective of belief in god or a set of religious tenets and somehow got twisted around to dictionary definitions. My point is and always was the following
I am quite confident that the majority of people who have such a belief are whole-hearted in their knowledge that what they believe is in fact TRUE in the absolute sense. There have been a pretty much never ending stream of people on this very forum claiming just such a "knowledge" of truth.
In this respect, FAITH = BELIEF = TRUTH and all in the complete absence of PROOF.
It is this, and only this, definition of belief that I have used in defining an absence of said belief. ie. there is no way to honestly know, have faith in or believe that there is no god. Any such assertion is every bit as unfounded as knowing, having faith, believing that there IS a god.
I never really intended the discussion to be dragged into the realms of scientific practice in this way. Somehow these things always seem to get dragged away from the original area of discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 12:39 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 1:31 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 55 of 101 (225145)
07-21-2005 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by PurpleYouko
07-21-2005 1:12 PM


Re: definition of belief.
It's clear that your argument that beleif must be absolute is based on your idea tht truth must be absolute. But what truth could be involved other than the truth of the statement ? So it seems to me that you ARE referring to the truth of the statement that is believed because there is no other truth that is or could be relevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 1:12 PM PurpleYouko has replied

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 Message 56 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 1:48 PM PaulK has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 56 of 101 (225148)
07-21-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by PaulK
07-21-2005 1:31 PM


Re: definition of belief.
But a falsehood can still be uncatagorically BELIEVED in if person accepts the falsehood as TRUTH.
Knowing the real TRUTH is something that cannot ever be done anyway.
Statement: The world is flat!
Anyone is free to BELIEVE this unreservedly. They just have to assign the statement the value of TRUE in their own mind. Even though TRUTH is absolute in regards to being boolean/binary it is also subjective. There may be an infinite number of claimants to the ultimate TRUTH of a given situation. Each can be believed in without causing any problems. Each person believing something is absolutely convinced that they have the ultimate TRUTH of the situation.
(added by edit)
As far as belief goes, any TRUTH is just as valid as any other.
This message has been edited by PurpleYouko, 07-21-2005 01:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 1:31 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 2:51 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 57 of 101 (225177)
07-21-2005 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by PurpleYouko
07-21-2005 1:48 PM


Re: definition of belief.
I agree. And the reason WHY it is possible is that your understanding of the definition of "believe" is wrong. The truth of the statement - and therefre the absolute nature of that truth (In your binary classificaotion) does not overrule the rest of the definition. THus the presence of "true: in the definition does not demand that the acceptance must be absolute any more than it demands that the beleif must be true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 1:48 PM PurpleYouko has replied

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 Message 58 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 3:35 PM PaulK has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 58 of 101 (225195)
07-21-2005 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by PaulK
07-21-2005 2:51 PM


Re: definition of belief.
Right, from definitions, the absolute nature of the TRUTH of a statement DOES NOT overrule the rest of the definition of BELIEF provided that the definition of BELIEF is "The acceptance of the statement as TRUTH" and ACCEPTANCE is not absolute, ie. it is tentative. In that case BELIEF could indeed also be tentative.
But if the definition of ACCEPTANCE is also absolute then the defininition of BELIEF becomes "The absolute acceptance of the statement as absolute TRUTH"
In this case the belief may still be assigned to a false TRUTH or more accurately to a possibly false TRUTH.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 2:51 PM PaulK has replied

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 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 3:53 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 59 of 101 (225202)
07-21-2005 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by PurpleYouko
07-21-2005 3:35 PM


Re: definition of belief.
But the definition of "belief" that you quoted did not say that the acceptance must be absolute, Thus the definition of "belief" does not require absolute certainty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 3:35 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-21-2005 4:05 PM PaulK has replied

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 60 of 101 (225207)
07-21-2005 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by PaulK
07-21-2005 3:53 PM


Re: definition of belief.
I never did actually define "accept".
here is about the only applicable definition that I could find.
Accept: consider or hold as true.
This could go on forever. Next we will have to define "consider" and "hold"
Let's just say that if "accept" is not absolute then you are right and it is possible to believe tentatively, but if it is then I am right and it isn't possible. In the broader sense of the terminology I am with you completely but in the context of BELIEF in god, I contend that the BELIEF, ACCEPTANCE, FAITH or whatever other terms come into play, are all absolute.
I do not have this kind of BELIEF in the absence of god therfore there IS a difference between "absense of belief" and "belief in absence"
That IS what all this is supposed to be about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 3:53 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 07-21-2005 4:25 PM PurpleYouko has replied

  
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