Author
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Topic: The Scientific Method For Beginners
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Message 50 of 138 (520980)
08-25-2009 8:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 49 by Arphy 08-25-2009 8:24 AM
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Re: Creationists Versus The Scientific Method
Ok maybe that comment was a bit excessive. the pride of the Christian really does have no bound... "a bit excessive" !!! It was an outright falsehood, whether deliberate or not. And you wonder why you generate such hostility in others. And when you talk about denying God, are you talking about just Yahweh, or were you including Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, and Thor?
This message is a reply to: | | Message 49 by Arphy, posted 08-25-2009 8:24 AM | | Arphy has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 55 by Arphy, posted 08-25-2009 9:39 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Once you go into this epistemological nightmare, then the accumulation of data cannot make you more and more certain of your hypothesis. You might not be approaching truth --- you might just be becoming more and more deeply duped by the illusion being fed to you. This is my own concern. We are forced into not only treating the conclusion as tentative, but every step, sub-step, and micro-step along the 10,000 year long path from "rocks fall when dropped" to "Hubble mirror can be corrected by use of X". If at each micro-step we have a finite probability of error, then the accumulated error by the final conclusion could well be material... is it?
This message is a reply to: | | Message 88 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-27-2009 12:28 PM | | Dr Adequate has replied |
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Message 98 of 138 (521717)
08-28-2009 5:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 95 by kbertsche 08-28-2009 1:50 PM
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Re: Tentativity
But the law of gravity is essentially synonymous with the theory of gravity. No, definitely not. Nosy and Mod have explained this well, so there's no need to repeat, but just to emphasise that *this* physicist certainly agrees with their sentiments.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 95 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 1:50 PM | | kbertsche has seen this message but not replied |
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Message 99 of 138 (521718)
08-28-2009 5:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 91 by Modulous 08-28-2009 12:26 PM
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Re: Tentativity
I regard the existence of gravity is a fact. I agree, and this is where I think we have a problem with the (over) enphasis on tentativity. The existence of gravity we regard as an observation, an input into our theory. But it too is the result of a process that actually means that our observation of gravity is the tentative conclusion of a process. As I stated before, each step, sub-step, and micro-step is reduced to a level of tentativity. For science to progress in accordance with the tenets of tentativity, one must caveat every possible micro-step. If we did this, I think we would still be banging rocks together...
This message is a reply to: | | Message 91 by Modulous, posted 08-28-2009 12:26 PM | | Modulous has seen this message but not replied |
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Re: theories and facts
We (physicists) do not call gravity a fact, but a theory or law. I am very confused by this. The vast difference between a theory and a law should be second nature to you if you are a practising scientist, and your conflation is very strange. I appreciate that gravitation and relativity may not be your field, but I would stress the same were we talking about the relationship between thermodynamic "laws" and statistical mechanics.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 100 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 5:50 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 104 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 6:11 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Re: Theory of Gravity
In this sense, a law is essentially a theory which has been extremely well established. No, no, no - couldn't be further from the truth! A law is an embodiment of observation, not of theory.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 102 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 6:01 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Re: Theory of Gravity
** duplicate post ** Edited by cavediver, : removing duplicate post
This message is a reply to: | | Message 107 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 6:21 PM | | kbertsche has seen this message but not replied |
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Re: Theory of Gravity
Their development required generalization beyond the actual observations Not usually - loosely, they are cases of building mathematical relationships to explain the observations. If there is generalisation that leads to predictions at the time unobserved, then you could argue that you are moving into the territory of a theory. But this is now outside the auspices of a law. But that doesn't stop a law forming the theory behind some previous law, e.g. you can view Newton LoG as forming the theory behind Kepler I, II, and III. Crudely, laws tell you how it is, and theories tell you why it is. And a law, by its nature, is always exceptionally tentat
This message is a reply to: | | Message 107 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 6:21 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Re: Fact, Law, Theory of Gravity
Exactly Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Message 118 of 138 (521783)
08-29-2009 5:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 113 by kbertsche 08-28-2009 11:40 PM
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Re: Theory of Gravity
Interestingly, we don't usually call the full set of Maxwell's Equations either a "theory" or a "law." Actually, we do. This is Maxwell's electromagnetism or the theory of electromagnetism. The laws explained by this theory are those you have mentioned, all empirically derived from observation. But Maxwell unified these laws into his theory, and went on to predict electromagnetic radiation.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 113 by kbertsche, posted 08-28-2009 11:40 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Re: Theory of Gravity
But the set of equations themselves are usually called "Maxwell's Equations" rather than "Maxwell's Theory." Yes, because they are the equations resulting from Maxwell's Theory But we commonly speak of Maxwell Theory in relativity, quantum gravity, and string theory. When we combine the actions of Maxwell Theory with other actions, we speak of, for example, Einstein-Maxwell Theory, Maxwell-Yang-Mills Theory, Maxwell-Chern-Simons Theory.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 132 by kbertsche, posted 08-29-2009 4:08 PM | | kbertsche has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 134 by kbertsche, posted 08-30-2009 5:17 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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