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Author | Topic: Mathematics and Nature | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I am asking is there any area of current pure mathematical research which will escape being subsumed into physical theory. Once something is known, then applications follow. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
most excellent breakdown. some quibbles:
so sometimes there is a period of trial and error while scientists experiment with various ways of systematizing. and {making\using\accumulating} predictions and subsequent evidence to validate or invalidate certain systematizations, to separate the wheat from the chaff. Math may be involved in the predictions and in the analysis of the data, but the data is not based on math.
In a ruler and compasses construction, the line between the tips of the compasses are, in effect, the measuring rod. A unitless measuring rod, generalized to all measurment conditions.
Even if the systematic method does not work perfectly, the mathematics is useful. For the mathematics tells us how the system would behave, purely on account of its systematicity, if reality did not intrude. That make it easier for us to see interesting features of reality in the failure of the mathematics to exactly match the world. Fully concur. Add that both the math needs to be revisited (and have nuances proposed to 'correct' it), AND the investigation to possibly validate the math should be done.
More recently science, and most particularly physics, has been looking at the systems studied by mathematics, to see if some of those systems can be adopted for use in systematic empirical methodology. The only problem I see here is a tendency to depend on the math and not involve the real world. Math should always be regarded as a purely theoretical model with no foundation in reality, so mathematically precise predictions do absolutely need to be validated on real observations. Don't mistake the clothes for the emperor. This message has been edited by RAZD, 12*14*2005 07:03 PM we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Just out of interest, why? Always is a very strong word. Because math is a purely - and idealized - intellectual construction that does not exist outside the mind. Take the counting of objects as an example: no two objects are really completely, purely 100% identical, so there is only 1 of anything. We "fuzzy" the definition of "object" to include a set of extremely similar objects - idealize them - to apply the intellectual concept. We could argue about the concept of a plane as a surface, but let's cut to the quick and take {the still simple yet one level more complex concept of} the mobius strip: no such thing exists in reality. You know my answers to the other questions - they have been extensively covered elsewhere, so we do not need to take this ot - lets keep this one about just the maths eh? we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Gottlob Frege
Frege's Advances in Logic: Frege virtually founded the modern discipline of mathematical logic. He developed a system of conceptual notation (inspired by Leibniz's conception of a rational calculus), and though we no longer use his notation, his system constituted the first predicate calculus. Frege's second-order predicate calculus was based on the `function-argument' analysis of propositions and it freed logicians from the limitations of the `subject-predicate' analysis of Aristotelian logic. Frege's formal system made it possible for logicians to develop a strict definition of a proof. Unfortunately, Frege employed a principle (Basic Law V) in his later system (Grundgesetze) which turned out to be inconsistent. Despite the fact that a contradiction invalidated his system, Frege validly derived the Peano Axioms governing the natural numbers from a powerful and consistent principle now known as Hume's Principle (some philosophers have proposed that the derivation of the Peano Axioms from Hume's Principle should be called `Frege's Theorem'). Frege is most well-known among philosophers, however, for suggesting that the expressions of language have both a sense and a denotation (i.e., that at least two semantic relations are required to explain the significance of linguistic expressions). This seminal idea in the philosophy of language has inspired research in the field for over a century. Interesting. Thanks. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
After all, if you're going to talk about "reality", then you have to also say that there's actually not any "1" thing at all; "objects" change all the time, whether it's their molecular motion or some atoms getting scrubbed off, etc. Or the subatomic level where particles change from one to another, yes, true enough, and that just makes the idealized concept of a set of objects just that much more fuzzy at any substantiative closer level of inspection. the mathematical concept of integers doesn't.
I would say, don't mistake the abstraction for the "reality". map. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I'm not sure what you mean here. I have made hundreds of mobius strips. With edges, joints, and thickness. you might as well make a donut and call it a mobius strip.
made up of fermions and bosons. always the same ones? we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
It all comes down to perceptions of reality eh?
we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
My cellotaped piece of paper ... ... models the mathematical concept close enough to convey the idea, but it is not the concept. Topologically or otherwise.
The quantum theory of electrons falls apart if there is the slightest hint of even a theoretical possibility of being able to distinguish two electrons. And yet, when you look inside the subatomic particles are forever dancing and changing partners ... based on QT eh? And you seem to be confusing "theoretical" with "actual" possiblity of distinguishing, are you claiming that theory is more important? Isn't that just exactly the point here? If it WAS measured and DID invalidate QT what would happen to reality? we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
My pieces of paper exhibited the required global topological behaviour, amongst other behaviours. You can imagine an idealised surface wrapped into a Mobius Band, but this surface also has topological properties that are irrelevant to its Mobius topology such as the nature of its width - is it open or closed, or is there a distance function defined. You are equivocating. The model displays the topology to a crude degree sufficient to convey the concept in model form, but it is still not the mathematical concept. The other properties you say are "irrelevant to it's mobius topology" show that you recognize that it is not the mathematical concept, as they do not exist for the concept. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
"Dancing"? "Changing partners"? Sorry, I don't speak Layman-ese as I told Randman recently. What are you talking about? Of what relevance is this to my point? These are metaphors I have used for the quantum behavior of subatomic particles to change from one to another or to more than one or disappear altogether for brief moments in time. What the particle is has to be described as a probability cloud, never certain. It's a dance with interchangeable partners. Or am I blindingly obtuse and invariably wrong on this topic too? Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
but you are.
you are idealizing the concept from the model and then saying that the idealized model relates in a mathematical (topology) manner to the mathematical concept. you are not comparing the concept with the model that is the reality of the paper strip. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
the mathematical concept is a single sided surface.
the paper model does not have a single surface, it has thickness dimensions with an inside as well as an outside as well as edges, and we aren't even getting to the rather difficult discontinuity at the joint formed by cut ends roughly lined up or lapped and glossed over with tape. if you extract the mathematical topological concept from the model you are comparing two mathematical concepts and not the model to the original concept. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
While you guys are busy patting yourselves on your backs about the various esoteric definitions you are using ... 2 things:
(1) from Wikipedia:M·bi·us strip n. The Mbius strip or Mbius band is a surface with only one side and only one boundary component. It has the mathematical property of being non-orientable. It was co-discovered independently by the German mathematicians August Ferdinand Mbius and Johann Benedict Listing in 1858. Common usage still uses the definition I gave, and it still serves to describe the fundamental mathematical concept involved, and (2) you are still ignoring that the model created by the strip does NOT in fact have these properties itself, that you are mentally extracting those properties from the model to compare it to the concept. For the model to have the properties even your esoteric definitions use, the points on one face would have to project through the paper -- they don't. Enjoy. {corrected typo} This message has been edited by RAZD, 12*17*2005 02:24 PM we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
ah yes. attack the messenger and not deal with the message.
cool.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Wikipedia? Give me a f'ing break. Nature study shows errors in wikipedia similar to enc. britannica. dictionary.com
es·o·ter·ic adj. 1.a. Intended for or understood by only a particular group: an esoteric cult. See Synonyms at mysterious. 1.b. Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number of people. 2.a. Confined to a small group: esoteric interests. 2.b. Not publicly disclosed; confidential. If you find either 1b or 2a insulting, then have at it. You still do not have a real mobius strip, but just a poor approximation that is good for demonstrating the concept. The model is not the concept. Comparing the (mathematical) topological characteristics that you extract from the model with the original mathematical concept does not get you to the point of having realized the concept in actual fact. Personally I don't see what the problem is with just admitting this basic fact. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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