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Author Topic:   "You are not really a scientist. You are a biologist"
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 32 (452703)
01-31-2008 3:09 AM


When Selfish Gene author Richard Dawkins challenged physicist John Barrow on his formulation of the constants of nature at last summer’s Templeton-Cambridge Journalism Fellowship lectures, Barrow laughed and said, “You have a problem with these ideas, Richard, because you’re not really a scientist. You’re a biologist.”
For Barrow, biology is little more than a branch of natural history. “Biologists have a limited, intuitive understanding of complexity. They’re stuck with an inherited conflict from the 19th century, and are only interested in outcomes, in what wins out over others,” he adds. “But outcomes tell you almost nothing about the laws that govern the universe.” For physicists it is the laws of nature themselves that capture and structure the universe”and put brakes on it as well.
Page not found - John Templeton Foundation
Barrow's put-down of Dawkins.....on the mark or silly?
Btw, I originally thought this may just be a coffee house topic, but thought maybe not. More a topic of interest than debate, though it could become debate on what's real science or something. It's interesting beyond the science celeb personality aspect in that physics seems much more open-minded and logical to me than biology.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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Message 2 of 32 (452754)
01-31-2008 9:43 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Rahvin
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Message 3 of 32 (452766)
01-31-2008 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
01-31-2008 3:09 AM


Barrow's put-down of Dawkins.....on the mark or silly?
If his comments were serious, they are silly to the point of absurdity. Biologists most certainly are scientists. They follow the scientific method and are responsible for a whole host of scientific knowledge, including modern medicine, genetics, agriculture, and a whole host of other fields.
Honestly, this sounds like a physicist making a bad joke, which is basically what your quote says ("Barrow laughed and said, “You have a problem with these ideas, Richard, because you’re not really a scientist. You’re a biologist.”). It sounds like he's just giving a fellow scientist a hard time.
As for the actual commentary on biology...it sounds more like he's going into the reasons he chose physics rather than biology because he wanted to understand the underlying forces of nature as opposed to "just" the outcomes. That doesn't mean biology is "not science," just that it's not Barrow's chosen field.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 32 (452769)
01-31-2008 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
01-31-2008 3:09 AM


It really sounds to me like he was making a joke.
I often say to my best friend "you bastard" and "I hate you". Does this really mean he has no legitimate father and that I want to run him down with my car?
It's amazing how people can take other people's words completely out of context.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 5 of 32 (452771)
01-31-2008 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
01-31-2008 3:09 AM


Enough Said
The 2006 winner of the $1.4 million Templeton Prize for Progress
toward Research about Spiritual Realities
Anyone who accepts a Templeton Prize as far as I am concerned reneges on their claim to be a scientist.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 6 of 32 (452775)
01-31-2008 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rahvin
01-31-2008 10:16 AM


Honestly, this sounds like a physicist making a bad joke
Read the link. This guy is a Templeton Foundation groupie. Its almost as bad as being a DI fellow.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 7 of 32 (452776)
01-31-2008 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
01-31-2008 10:25 AM


It's amazing how people can take other people's words completely out of context.
It is quite possible that he meant it. Read the link.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 8 of 32 (452779)
01-31-2008 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Jazzns
01-31-2008 10:29 AM


Re: Enough Said
Anyone who accepts a Templeton Prize as far as I am concerned reneges on their claim to be a scientist.
For $1.4 million tax free, I'll renege on just about anything

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 32 (452780)
01-31-2008 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jazzns
01-31-2008 10:32 AM


I have. Look at who wrote the article.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 10 of 32 (452782)
01-31-2008 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by cavediver
01-31-2008 10:34 AM


Re: Enough Said
Isn't that only like 700K in brit's weird money?

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 11 of 32 (452784)
01-31-2008 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by cavediver
01-31-2008 10:34 AM


Re: Enough Said
Not only that, but all my physicist friends are constantly ribbing me about biology being nothing but stamp collecting, and I'm always responding that physics is nothing but playing with tinker toys.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 32 (452785)
01-31-2008 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rahvin
01-31-2008 10:16 AM


...this sounds like a physicist making a bad joke....
Well, as someone who actually has a physics degree, I'll let you in on the secret: physicists tend to at least half-believe themselves when they make this joke. There is (or at least was a couple of decades ago) a feeling that physics is a real man's science, while people who just can't handle the intellectual rigor go into fields like biology and sociology. This is (or was) especially true for those in fields like particle physics -- you would be astounded by the level of arrogance in those fields. I was always surprised that those people can fit their heads through ordinary doorways.

Spare a thought for the stay-at-home voter;
His empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows
And a parade of the gray suited grafters:
A choice of cancer or polio. -- The Rolling Stones

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 13 of 32 (452786)
01-31-2008 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
01-31-2008 10:35 AM


I have. Look at who wrote the article.
The author is unfamiliar to me.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 14 of 32 (452788)
01-31-2008 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taz
01-31-2008 10:36 AM


Re: Enough Said
Yeah, but as we only earn eight shillings a day here, 700K is a lot of money to us peasants...
Eta (the previous cantankerous cosmologist on this site, prior to my arrival) thought I was John Barrow

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 15 of 32 (452790)
01-31-2008 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Chiroptera
01-31-2008 10:40 AM


interesting post
Interesting on several levels....first, I tend to half-agree (or more) with the attitude from what I've seen, but it probably is arrogant, at least for them, to think that way. Then again, I think science has a lot of unfounded arrogance all the way around from what I can tell.

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