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Author Topic:   Absence of Evidence..............
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 138 (467671)
05-23-2008 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
05-22-2008 11:14 AM


Discussion
A recurring theme here at EvC is the concept that ”Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’. Those of a theistic bent tend to selectively use this argument in application to their own unfounded beliefs whilst dismissing any equivalent claims to things that they find as equally ridiculous as I find their claims of the supernatural.
If I handed you a shoebox and claimed that there was a $100 bill inside it, how would you prove that there wasn't?
You would prove it with the absence of evidence that there is a bill in the box. If you looked in the box and saw no evidence of a bill, then you would conclude that there wasn't one in there. But would that prove that there was no bill in the box? No, because you could have simply overlooked it. Or maybe it was dark, or maybe the bill was hidden under a piece of cardboard in the bottom of the box that you were unaware of.
The point is that you can use the absence of evidence to suggest absence, but that you can't be sure of absence simply by the lack of evidence.
In the absence of empirical evidence what conclusions can we justifiably draw?
Justifiably? Nothing.
Should not the default position, i.e. the position in the absence of any evidence always be disbelief rather than belief?
Any evidence? Sure.
But what about non-empirical "evidence"?
Is not empirical evidence the only basis on which reliable conclusions can be made?
It is the only reliable one.
The only form of evidence that can ultimately establish the truth or otherwise of any given claim?
How can we know?
The only form of evidence that actually warrants the term “evidence”?
Not in my opinion. But "evidence" usually means empirical and using "evidence" to describe non-empirical 'evidence' usually clouds issues.
If you are religious at all, is there any area apart from your religious beliefs where you would be willing to believe in something without empirical evidence of some kind?
UFO's, ghosts, ESP, love, Global Warming (zing!).
Why should we believe in, or make concessions to, anything for which there is no physical evidence?
Because there might be more out there that positivism could be totally blind to.
WRT your examples, I'd say they are all wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 05-22-2008 11:14 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Perdition, posted 05-23-2008 9:50 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 9 by Straggler, posted 05-23-2008 3:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 138 (467685)
05-23-2008 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Perdition
05-23-2008 9:50 AM


You could look at this situation another way, though. In your mind, you're not trying to decipher the veracity of the sentence "There is a $100 bill inside this shoebox." What you're really deciphering is your trust in the honesty of the person telling you about the money with respect to a claim like this.
The point was for the situation to be analogous to deciphering the veracity of a claim rather than just evaluating the honesty of the person making the claim.
As you said, would it prove there was no bill? No. You can't prove a negative. Would it convince you that there was no bill, I would think it should. But either way, we don't take claims at face value, we factor in the situation, the person telling us, and those are empirical clues we can use to go on.
But the point of this thread is evaluating claims which have no empirical clues, iow, an absence of evidence.
Anyways though....
we don't take claims at face value, we factor in the situation, the person telling us, and those are empirical clues we can use to go on
I don't think the situation and person telling us are empirical clues.
If your mom told you, in a courtroom, that souls do exist, would you consider that empirical evidence?
What about the claims of the majority of people on this planet that souls exist... that ain't empiricaleither.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Perdition, posted 05-23-2008 9:50 AM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Perdition, posted 05-23-2008 11:57 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 138 (467726)
05-23-2008 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Straggler
05-23-2008 3:14 PM


Re: Inherently Untestable?
Are you claiming that we can find empirical evidence for the soul (for example) if we just look hard enough?
No no no. Not what I was going for. I was just exemplifying that the absense of evidence really can be used to conclude that something doesn't exist, but that it doesn't "prove" it.
Or is the soul inherently non-empirical?
Surely you can see the difference here?
Yes I see the diff. I don't know if the soul is inherantly non-empirical or not but I'd guess that it is.
If there is no empirical reason whatsoever to beleieve that something even might exist then there is a very high degree of certainty that it does not.
Me and millions of other people thinking that it exists is enough for me to not be certain that it does not.
Or if there is give me an example of a form of non-empirical and what conclusion you can draw from this "evidence".
It feels like I have a soul so I conclude that I do have one.
UFO's, ghosts, ESP
Do you? Really? Based on non-empirical evidence?
Sure, I don't have any empirical evidence for those things.
Because there might be more out there that positivism could be totally blind to.
In which case the claims of every nutjob on the planet should be treated as equally as valid as any religious claims for the soul and such like.
Pretty much, except that we can add plausibility in there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Straggler, posted 05-23-2008 3:14 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Straggler, posted 05-23-2008 3:51 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 12 by Rahvin, posted 05-23-2008 3:53 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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