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Author Topic:   Should Evolution and Creation be Taught in School?
Always Curious
Junior Member (Idle past 4464 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 03-03-2007


Message 271 of 308 (387996)
03-03-2007 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Finding Nirvana
02-09-2006 5:51 PM


Unfortunatly evolution is being taught even before kids enter school. Evolution is being thrust upon young minds as they began to read. When a boy becomes fascinated by dinosaurs, like many do, they will probably pick up a book and I am willing to bet that 99.5% of the time the words "millions and millions of years ago" will be within the first couple of pages. I strongly believe that such comments as that should be avoided. Evolution, creationism, and everything that pertains to the same basic idea should be explored together in a science class each getting equal attention. This would allow the students to actually think for themselves on a controversial topic instead of being made to learn that evolution is a "fact".
This message is a reply to:
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 Message 273 by jar, posted 03-03-2007 11:55 PM Always Curious has not yet responded
 Message 274 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-04-2007 5:25 AM Always Curious has not yet responded
 Message 276 by RAZD, posted 03-04-2007 9:09 AM Always Curious has not yet responded
 Message 278 by Chiroptera, posted 03-04-2007 9:19 AM Always Curious has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1920
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 272 of 308 (387997)
03-03-2007 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Always Curious
03-03-2007 11:42 PM


"millions and millions of years ago"

Geologists are involved in determining the age of the earth not biologists.

Evolution, creationism, and everything that pertains to the same basic idea should be explored together in a science class each getting equal attention

Why should mythology be in a science class? Whats wrong with having science in science classes and mythology in something else? And what creations myths would you include? Norse? Hindu? Native American?


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Always Curious, posted 03-03-2007 11:42 PM Always Curious has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 273 of 308 (387998)
03-03-2007 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Always Curious
03-03-2007 11:42 PM


Only if you want to lie to the kids.
When a boy becomes fascinated by dinosaurs, like many do, they will probably pick up a book and I am willing to bet that 99.5% of the time the words "millions and millions of years ago" will be within the first couple of pages. I strongly believe that such comments as that should be avoided.

You only want to avoid stuff like "millions of years" if you want to lie to the kids.

Evolution, creationism, and everything that pertains to the same basic idea should be explored together in a science class each getting equal attention. This would allow the students to actually think for themselves on a controversial topic instead of being made to learn that evolution is a "fact".

Of course, evolution IS a fact. That is simply not even in doubt.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Always Curious, posted 03-03-2007 11:42 PM Always Curious has not yet responded

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1160 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 274 of 308 (388007)
03-04-2007 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Always Curious
03-03-2007 11:42 PM


Evolution SHOULD be taught to preschoolers
I take the whole thing very personally. The whole EvC issue was a lot of fun until it became my life. I could very easily in the next few weeks lose my job because I dare teach that the Earth is over 6000 years old.

I am a college professor who teaches at a Christian college. The official stance of the college is scientists teach current science. I am currently teaching a course in Historical Geology. However, I have a student who has petitioned her way up the ladder with the argument that I do not give YEC versions of geology. This was all a bit of a laugh with us. “Silly student”.. and all. Everyone told me not to worry.

Then our department head asked me to submit all of my lectures, college transcripts (??!!) and curriculum vitae (cv) to him. She (the student) went from me teaching evolution (which is accepted by our school) to my credentials for teaching geology at all. She mailed a letter to the accreditation board (we are this year under our 10 year accreditation review) saying that we have a biologist teaching geology.

The end story of all of this…. My ‘nice’ level for creationists has dropped to zero. My patience level for any ignorant retards trying to pass off Bronze age mythology as science is zero. Their ideology might well cost me my job.


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2200
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 275 of 308 (388011)
03-04-2007 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Lithodid-Man
03-04-2007 5:25 AM


Re: Evolution SHOULD be taught to preschoolers
Lith writes:

Then our department head asked me to submit all of my lectures, college transcripts (??!!) and curriculum vitae (cv) to him. She (the student) went from me teaching evolution (which is accepted by our school) to my credentials for teaching geology at all. She mailed a letter to the accreditation board (we are this year under our 10 year accreditation review) saying that we have a biologist teaching geology.

The end story of all of this…. My ‘nice’ level for creationists has dropped to zero. My patience level for any ignorant retards trying to pass off Bronze age mythology as science is zero. Their ideology might well cost me my job.

I don't know if this is any consolation but when a person's credentials to teach are questioned by one of the half dozen or so national accrediting agencies in the US, the hit is to the administration and not towards the instructor in question. The reason administrators are seeking your credentials is to back up their argument that they are not remiss in allowing you to teach a given class.

Obviously, I am unfamiliar with your exact circumstances but from my experience (we went through accrediting last year) I don't believe any problems any accrediting agency may have concerning appropriate credentials should reflect upon you personally.

Also, accreditors are usually pretty professional in their judgments, they will consider the source and validity of any cause of any complaints. May your administration realize this and behave in a similar manner.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-04-2007 5:25 AM Lithodid-Man has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 276 of 308 (388023)
03-04-2007 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Always Curious
03-03-2007 11:42 PM


remedial science 101
Unfortunatly evolution is being taught even before kids enter school. Evolution is being thrust upon young minds as they began to read. When a boy becomes fascinated by dinosaurs, like many do, they will probably pick up a book and I am willing to bet that 99.5% of the time the words "millions and millions of years ago" will be within the first couple of pages.

(1) The age of the different geological periods is determined by geologists not evolution biologists.

In fact not one thing you talk about involves evolution - other than the fact that dinosaurs once roamed the earth (in significantly greater numbers than today).

(2) The earth is old. That is a fact. Whether it is 4.5 billion years or 4.6 billion years is in some dispute, but the fact remains that the earth is OVER 4.5 billion years old.

That means that mentioning "millions and millions of years ago" in a book involving the introduction of science to kids is correctly stating known facts when they say this.

Do you object to facts being in books for children?

Evolution, creationism, and everything that pertains to the same basic idea should be explored together in a science class each getting equal attention.

You mean we should teach science and non-science in science class? You of course realize that "everything that pertains to the same basic idea" includes every myth ever known to man as well as many invalidated theories, such as Lamarkism and the like. I hardly think this is the place to include mythology. This would leave little time to actually address a single element of the factual basis for evolution in the limited time available for such classes.

This would allow the students to actually think for themselves on a controversial topic instead of being made to learn that evolution is a "fact".

Evolution IS a fact: speciation HAS occurred. Evolution HAS occurred. It is only "controversial" to people that deny the evidence in favor of mythology.

Of course confusing mythological fiction with science fact as being intellectually equals is a great way to teach kids to think clearly.

Or do you think you have some scientific evidence for creation?

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : added


Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Always Curious, posted 03-03-2007 11:42 PM Always Curious has not yet responded

fooj
Junior Member (Idle past 4350 days)
Posts: 22
Joined: 01-18-2007


Message 277 of 308 (388024)
03-04-2007 9:10 AM


Non-public schools are not required to teach evolution.
The title of my topic should give you a clue as to what situation you are in. You need a job in a public school. I don't think you have a chance to get a fair hearing. Historical Geography? My personal belief is that altho I am a YECer, I don't think creationism should be taught in public schools. (Moreover, I yet to see where evolution is used in technological applications.)

Edited by fooj, : bad grammar.


Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6768
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 278 of 308 (388025)
03-04-2007 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Always Curious
03-03-2007 11:42 PM


quote:
This would allow the students to actually think for themselves on a controversial topic instead of being made to learn that evolution is a "fact".

Well, evolution is a fact. The only controversy is political, maintained by people insisting that their discredited Bronze Age mythology be accepted as fact.

-

quote:
Evolution, creationism, and everything that pertains to the same basic idea should be explored together in a science class each getting equal attention.

To a point, I agree with this. Seeing how certain religious fanatics insist that their mythologies be accepted as fact, and seeing how these religious fanatics are trying to use the political process to impose their wacky beliefs on the general population, and seeing how a certain discredited Bronze Age mythology is part of these wacky beliefs, I fully support giving a lot of attention to Biblical creationism, showing in gory detail all the evidence that serves to show it is simply not correct, how the major creationist players are nuts, and how the theory of evolution (and the rest of geology) really do provide a detailed history of the world that is consistent with easily observable data.


Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Always Curious, posted 03-03-2007 11:42 PM Always Curious has not yet responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6768
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 279 of 308 (388027)
03-04-2007 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Lithodid-Man
03-04-2007 5:25 AM


Re: Evolution SHOULD be taught to preschoolers
Hey, L-man.

As a college instructor, I fully sympathize with you and hope it all comes out well. Fortunately, I teach math, and there really isn't much controversial in math. But I am in a region that is far more conservative than I am used to, and outside of class there are topics that I don't discuss.

Good luck.


Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-04-2007 5:25 AM Lithodid-Man has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 20044
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 280 of 308 (388029)
03-04-2007 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Lithodid-Man
03-04-2007 5:25 AM


Re: Evolution SHOULD be taught to preschoolers
She mailed a letter to the accreditation board

What accreditation board is that?

I am a college professor who teaches at a Christian college. ...I am currently teaching a course in Historical Geology. ... saying that we have a biologist teaching geology.

The other questions are (1) are there any geologists at this school and (2) if so, have they reviewed the class lectures OR (3) if not why not AND (4) isn't this something the college should have done before offering the class? and finally (5) Don't they stand by their teachers they assign to teach the classes?

I'm rootin for ya LM


Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-04-2007 5:25 AM Lithodid-Man has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Chiroptera, posted 03-04-2007 10:36 AM RAZD has not yet responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6768
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 281 of 308 (388030)
03-04-2007 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by RAZD
03-04-2007 10:07 AM


Re: Evolution SHOULD be taught to preschoolers
Heh. The minutia of accrediting can be astounding, especially since the reviewers themselves may not have any real competency in the field. (We have just gone through our own accreditation process. Ugh.)

That said, I can't see why the accreditation should be a problem. L-man's college doesn't have a Geology program. They only offer a general geology course as part of a degree in Environmental Science. L-man's college is quite small -- they simply cannot hire an expert to teach only one course every term or every other term. Accreditation agencies know this.

This is a nuisance suit, just to put pressure on the administration. As you point out, it is really a matter of whether the aministration is going to stand up for their faculty. Also, L-man's college is associated with the Presbyterian Church (USA), who don't have any doctrinal problems with the theory of evolution.


Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine
This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by RAZD, posted 03-04-2007 10:07 AM RAZD has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 282 of 308 (388040)
03-04-2007 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by fooj
03-04-2007 9:10 AM


Re: Non-public schools are not required to teach evolution.
While it is true that private schools do not have to teach Evolution, they really should unless they are committed to imposing a cult of ignorance on the students. The Facts are that Evolution happened, that the Earth is something over 4 billion years old and the universe over 14 billion years old.

Any school which teaches that Evolution is not a fact or that the Universe is young is simply teaching falsehoods. There is no other way to say it.

These are not matters of opinion. Reality is not determined by opinion. Reality is.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 9:10 AM fooj has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by fooj, posted 03-04-2007 3:02 PM jar has responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 308 (388045)
03-04-2007 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Lithodid-Man
03-04-2007 5:25 AM


Re: Evolution SHOULD be taught to preschoolers
My patience level for any ignorant retards trying to pass off Bronze age mythology as science is zero. Their ideology might well cost me my job.

Go through her classwork and start typing parts of it into Google. Doubtless she's committed academic dishonesty along the way. When you find something, petition to have her expelled.

She doesn't have the right to launch an ideological crusade to get you fired. Professors aren't the only ones whose academic background can fall under intense scrutiny.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-04-2007 5:25 AM Lithodid-Man has not yet responded

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 4101 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 284 of 308 (388053)
03-04-2007 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Lithodid-Man
03-04-2007 5:25 AM


Re: Evolution SHOULD be taught to preschoolers
Damn, I'm sorry to hear that Lith. If you need to file a countersuit (if it goes that far), try the ACLU.

Another reason to be glad I'm in a field position, rather than academia. I may not have the fancy credentials, but nobody tries to get me fired over ideology. Poor contract management, on the other hand...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-04-2007 5:25 AM Lithodid-Man has not yet responded

fooj
Junior Member (Idle past 4350 days)
Posts: 22
Joined: 01-18-2007


Message 285 of 308 (388080)
03-04-2007 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by jar
03-04-2007 11:48 AM


Re: Non-public schools are not required to teach evolution.
quote:
While it is true that private schools do not have to teach Evolution, they really should unless they are committed to imposing a cult of ignorance on the students. The Facts are that Evolution happened, that the Earth is something over 4 billion years old and the universe over 14 billion years old.

A theory (aka strong conclusion) which brings with it no discernable technological benefits cannot be a fact.

Edited by fooj, : bad posting result.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 289 by Chiroptera, posted 03-04-2007 4:12 PM fooj has not yet responded
 Message 290 by jar, posted 03-04-2007 4:40 PM fooj has responded

  
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