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Author Topic:   Creationism in the Philippines?
custard
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 29 (188354)
02-25-2005 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by coffee_addict
02-25-2005 2:36 AM


comments
Lam/Hector/Jacen,
Greekslayer writes:
We can think of micro-evolution as taking a walk to the house next door and macro-evolution as taking a walk to the house 5 blocks away while stopping at every house.
I keep hearing that analogy, but my growing concern with this is that it implies orthogenesis. Unfortunately I'm not sure I can think of an alternative which is as easy to explain.
Now, my problem with that statement is when it says "macro-evolution claims that major changes in the genes of organisms take place over a long period of time...." Because it doesn't include the fact that major changes in the genes are a result a whole lot of little changes in the genes, this statement gives the false impression to your typical uneducated person that a fish could really become a reptile overnight.
I am beginning to question this argument as well because of the persistent lack of evidence for this type of gradualism in the fossil record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by coffee_addict, posted 02-25-2005 2:36 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 02-25-2005 4:06 AM custard has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 29 (188361)
02-25-2005 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by coffee_addict
02-25-2005 4:06 AM


Re: comments
How about this.
I take a walk in a random direction and constantly changing my random direction. If I have a camera with me, I'll take random snapshots from where I started to where I end up at 10 years from now. After I am dead, others can look at my photos and try to determine where I had been. The more photos they find, the more accurate their map will be.
Better?
Nice job. I was thinking along those lines exactly, but was having difficulty putting it into words without getting to technical.
The better question is why not? If you keep having mutations after mutations after mutations over many many generations, what's to keep the future population from being so different than the original population that a rep from the original population wouldn't be able to reproduce an offspring with a rep of the same population in a distant future?
Well the original populations very existence would prevent the future population from ever completely evolving into some sort of daughter species because they'd be continually interacting with each other.
Wouldn't it take some event, like geographic isolation, to allow the 'future' pop to evolve into a seperate species?
That's where the natural selection argument starts to seem thin to me: if the 'future' pop has some sort of advantage due to mutation, why doesn't it overwhelm or replace the parent pop without such a drastic event occurring?
The genes just seem too stable over long periods of time. Take sharks or crocodiles, pretty much the same organisms, if not exactly the same, for eons. Why aren't they eventually displaced by a daughter species that has developed some sort of competitive advantage. Isn't that how NS is supposed to work?
This message has been edited by custard, 02-25-2005 04:25 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 02-25-2005 4:06 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 02-25-2005 4:40 AM custard has replied
 Message 17 by Wounded King, posted 02-25-2005 4:53 AM custard has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 29 (188372)
02-25-2005 4:48 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by coffee_addict
02-25-2005 4:40 AM


Re: comments
But we have to remember that things don't have to change. If they are perfectly adapted for their environment, why must they change?
See, that's where I get confused. Aren't species undergoing change via mutation every time they produce new offspring?
If a species is undergoing constant change due to mutation, and eventually some mutations will be beneficial, why don't we see more daughter species outcompeting their parents?
It seems you are stating that an organism can reach a state of equilibrium with its environment: essentially no new change could ever allow its offspring to be more competitive in the same niche.
Isn't that paradoxical to the argument you made that species accumulate millions of minute changes until one day, voila! new species?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 02-25-2005 4:40 AM coffee_addict has replied

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 29 (188377)
02-25-2005 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Wounded King
02-25-2005 4:53 AM


back on topic
wking writes:
For all we know this has already happened. Morphology is not a good indicator of reprodcutive isolation. The fact that modern Crocodilia resemble their fossil ancestors does not neccessarily mean that they would be interfertile.
Great point. But for all we know it has never happened. This is why I am beginning to have problems with the gradualism/accumulated mutations argument.
Sorry for the topic stray amix. I'll give it a rest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Wounded King, posted 02-25-2005 4:53 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 29 (188389)
02-25-2005 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Aximili23
02-25-2005 5:09 AM


Re: what do you think?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paleontologists, however, have failed to dig up any fossils of species at intermediate stages of evolution and this problem has been known as the "missing link."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't this also patently untrue?
Depends on your definition of 'intermediate.' Some would argue that Archeopteryx (sp sorry) is a perfect example of an intermediate fossil, most creationists seem to disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Aximili23, posted 02-25-2005 5:09 AM Aximili23 has replied

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 29 (188390)
02-25-2005 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by coffee_addict
02-25-2005 5:14 AM


Re: what do you think?
Stephen Gould talks about micro and macro evolution.
This is what talkorigins.org says:
There is no difference between micro- and macroevolution except that genes between species usually diverge, while genes within species usually combine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by coffee_addict, posted 02-25-2005 5:14 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
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