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Author Topic:   Creationist/ID Education should be allowed
platypus
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 1 of 116 (367829)
12-05-2006 6:05 PM


I have heard creationists accept that natural selection, random mutations, and speciation occurs in our world. The only thing they seem to fight is anagenesis and evolution from one species. Most evolutionary research today studies mutations, natural selection, sexual selection, speciation, etc. There are in fact few studies which look at origin of life issues. So, the question is, what is there to fight about on the education level? Although most evolutionary biologists would like students to hear about the origin of life, what they really, really want high school students to learn is the mechanics of mutation and selection, so that they have the fundamentals neccessary to conduct 95% of all current evolutionary research.

Anyone have major objections to a high school biology curriculum that involves and only involves natural selection, mutations, and speciation (with no mention of God or origin of species)?

Edited by platypus, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Modulous, posted 12-06-2006 9:57 AM platypus has not replied
 Message 4 by Jazzns, posted 12-06-2006 10:23 AM platypus has replied
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-06-2006 1:58 PM platypus has replied
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 12-08-2006 9:12 PM platypus has not replied
 Message 39 by PaulGL, posted 04-06-2012 11:00 AM platypus has not replied
 Message 91 by WarriorArchangel, posted 03-14-2013 2:46 PM platypus has not replied
 Message 98 by Skulb, posted 07-17-2013 2:52 PM platypus has not replied

  
platypus
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 5 of 116 (367975)
12-06-2006 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jazzns
12-06-2006 10:23 AM


Re: No Dice
I wouldn't call this a concession- rather, I would like to call this an illustration to creationists of how much of the debate they have lost when they concede natural selection and speciation. If they wish to insist on a "creationist" curriculum (which is how this whole thing got started), then the curriculum they will be insisting on now only differs from the "evolutionist" curriculum on a few points that do not affect most biology evolutionary research. The only issue they can really exclude from the current evolutionary curriculum is the origin of species, which is really more of a biochemical/geosciences issue anyway. These two topics aren't really high school curriculum, and I am specifically refering to a high school education.

P.S. I wasn't taught evolution in my high school biology class (Catholic high school-they ignored the entire issue). Making the teaching of natural selection and speciation a neccessary part of a high school biology curriculum, whatever the evo/creo views of the school are, is a step up in my eyes, not a concession.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jazzns, posted 12-06-2006 10:23 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jazzns, posted 12-06-2006 3:14 PM platypus has replied

  
platypus
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 7 of 116 (368001)
12-06-2006 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
12-06-2006 1:58 PM


Logical Possibility
Not if God created archetypical species in the past- and these archetypal species have evolved into all the present day variations. Eg.- one original cat species that speciated into all present day cats.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-06-2006 1:58 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Brad McFall, posted 12-22-2006 6:29 PM platypus has not replied

  
platypus
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 12 of 116 (368226)
12-07-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jazzns
12-06-2006 3:14 PM


Re: No Dice
Yes, I agree, no concession to the impotent. But I think you are being unrealistic. As far as I understand the situation, the high school curriculum is jam-packed as it is. There is very little room to add more to it. All we can really hope for is that high schoolers come out with good fundamentals and a general grasp of science topics. When it comes down to it, what message do we want our HS students leaving with? All life originates from one common ancestor? Or that natural selection is a crucial factor governing the response of organisms to our environment? The former question has important philosophical implications and I guess is crucial to geosciences. But I am more concerned with the latter question, since this governs most of evolutionary and biomedical research, particular of rapidly evolving bacteria and viruses. I'd rather have our doctors capable of curing diseases than have our philosophers slightly more knowledgable about the world.

Still waiting to hear what a creationist thinks of this curriculum...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jazzns, posted 12-06-2006 3:14 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Chiroptera, posted 12-07-2006 1:27 PM platypus has replied
 Message 16 by Larni, posted 12-08-2006 8:18 AM platypus has not replied
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platypus
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 14 of 116 (368239)
12-07-2006 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Chiroptera
12-07-2006 1:27 PM


Re: No Dice
I would say that the fundamental aspect of evolutionary biology is that organisms adapt to environments through the mechanism of natural selection. From this speciation follows, and from speciation we arrive at a single phylogenetic tree. The single phylogenetic tree is not the fundamental aspect, it is a conclusion or corollary that follows from the fundamental aspect.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 12-08-2006 8:23 AM platypus has replied

  
platypus
Member (Idle past 5069 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 23 of 116 (368558)
12-08-2006 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Straggler
12-08-2006 8:23 AM


Re: No Dice
I think I agree with most of your statement. The important part of science is for students to understand the scientific process, how ideas are created and tested.
quote:
To understand that a search for truth within an objective reality is what underpins the methods of science is key.

Exactly. But how certain are we of the origin of life? We're very certain natural selection happens, we are very certain speciation happens, these have all been tested by scientific experiments. But we can only say the life must have originated from a primordial soup, and give a possible explanation of how that could have happened. The origin of life is probably the least supported element of evolutionary theory. It is a logical consequence of natural selection and speciation, but there is no (or little) direct evidence for how it happened. If we really want to drive home the methods of science to students, is the origin of life and common ancestry really the way to go? It is more of a fact of the matter than a good example of scientific exploration working to understand an issue.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 26 by Straggler, posted 12-22-2006 5:52 PM platypus has not replied

  
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