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Author Topic:   Sued for teaching evolution- Florida secondary education bill
Matt P
Member (Idle past 4775 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 1 of 21 (194118)
03-24-2005 4:31 PM


Hi all. Long time lurker, recent poster.
I've been made aware of a Florida bill regarding secondary education: H-837 (can be accessed from http://www.flsenate.gov). On the surface it sounds moderately reasonable, allowing for equal distribution of funds and protection against ridicule in classes. However, when you find out what the senator who introduced the bill thinks about education in general, you may start to get worried.
quote:
Republicans on the House Choice and Innovation Committee voted along party lines Tuesday to pass a bill that aims to stamp out leftist totalitarianism by dictator professors in the classrooms of Florida’s universities.
The Academic Freedom Bill of Rights, sponsored by Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, passed 8-to-2 despite strenuous objections from the only two Democrats on the committee.
The bill has two more committees to pass before it can be considered by the full House.
While promoting the bill Tuesday, Baxley said a university education should be more than one biased view by the professor, who as a dictator controls the classroom, as part of a misuse of their platform to indoctrinate the next generation with their own views.
...
Some professors say, ‘Evolution is a fact. I don’t want to hear about Intelligent Design (a creationist theory), and if you don’t like it, there’s the door,’ Baxley said, citing one example when he thought a student should sue.
...
Freedom is a dangerous thing, and you might be exposed to things you don’t want to hear, he said. Being a businessman, I found out you can be sued for anything. Besides, if students are being persecuted and ridiculed for their beliefs, I think they should be given standing to sue.
During the committee hearing, Baxley cast opposition to his bill as leftists struggling against mainstream society.
Quote above cut from http://www.alligator.org/pt2/050323freedom.php
Please see for full article.
Personally, I think someone read too much Jack Chick (see the "Big Daddy" tract). He's also appealing to similar arguments as those employed in the Scopes Trial by Bryan- that the public can decide what is taught in public universities.
So the broad issues are: is this legislation reasonable? How much accounting do public university professors have to the public vs. to science?

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Quetzal, posted 03-25-2005 7:32 PM Matt P has not replied
 Message 5 by mick, posted 03-25-2005 7:45 PM Matt P has replied
 Message 6 by mick, posted 03-25-2005 7:51 PM Matt P has not replied
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 03-28-2005 2:02 PM Matt P has not replied

  
AdminSylas
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 21 (194491)
03-25-2005 5:46 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 21 (194508)
03-25-2005 6:43 PM


Totally Amazing!!!
Ah! Florida! What's in the water?
I have NEVER in my life taken a class where I can sue the teacher if he says something I disagree with OR a class where I had much if any say in what material will be covered. It's pure inanity.
Here is another quote that kills me:
quote:
Students who believe their professor is singling them out for public ridicule — for instance, when professors use the Socratic method to force students to explain their theories in class — would also be given the right to sue.
So a student could sue for being embarrased during a question in class? Give me a break.
Actually, I think this bill should go through.
I'm dying for the first case of a student suing a professor for what he teaches. I can't wait for it to hit worldwide headlines.
Look, it's a class. Students learn. Professors teach.
Students can question the professor all they want.
If their questioning becomes excessive enough to disturb the flow of the class, then they can question the professor outside of class.
If students don't like the class, they have plenty of time to drop it.
What use is litigation?
Would it be so that professors develop a fear of teaching evolution?
NOT GONNA HAPPEN!
Wow, this country never ceases to amaze me.
I think maybe the republicans don't realize that if they keep this kind of thing up, along with dismantling SS among other things, they will shoot themselves in the foot. I don't know if they realize that some of their base is slowly pulling the crap from their eyes long enough to wise up to what they are up to.

Replies to this message:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 4 of 21 (194519)
03-25-2005 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Matt P
03-24-2005 4:31 PM


The best bit, of course, is:
quote:
Freedom is a dangerous thing, and you might be exposed to things you don’t want to hear
So, obviously, we need to protect you poor innocent college students from anything remotely resembling freedom, lest you be corrupted. The best way to do that is simply to deny your freedom completely. Don't worry, we'll tell you what to think and how to act. Won't that be nice? No worries. No dangerous ideas. No unapproved thoughts. Welcome to The United Fundamentalist Theocracy of America.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Matt P, posted 03-24-2005 4:31 PM Matt P has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 5 of 21 (194523)
03-25-2005 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Matt P
03-24-2005 4:31 PM


Hi Matt,
How much accounting do public university professors have to the public vs. to science
University professors tend to last longer than governments. The democratic mandate of a government is frequently withdrawn, but professors go on. By their very nature, professors do not have a democratic credibility that is rooted in the electoral process. Nevertheless, professors (and graduate students, and undergraduate students, for that matter) have a responsbility to the public, but this doesn't equate to a responsibility to any particular government.
The responsibility of academics to the public is that they should not waste public money, should not set out to harm the interests of the public, should carry out politically-independent research, and generally try as honestly as they can to seek out the truth. I think their responsbility is similar to that of medical professionals. Doctors have a responsibility to act honestly, and as much as is possible independently of their political beliefs, and for the benefit of the public. Furthermore they have taken the Hippocractic oath, which means that they are bound not to purposefully harm members of the public.
In the same way that a doctor's Hippocratic oath overrides her responsibility to the government, I believe that a scientist's adherence to intellectual honesty and independence also overrides her responsbility to the government. But in both cases there persists a responsbility to the public that should go arm in arm with a commitment to intellectal honesty and a search for truth.
I think it is perfectly reasonable that the interests of the public should direct scientific research. But part of this is that scientists should resist elitist minority pressure groups that try to control them.
As for education being "one biased view by the professor, who as a dictator controls the classroom" - this is part of the pleasure of developing into a scientist in your own right, in that you are free to "persecute" and "ridicule" your old teachers, within the scientific literature, if their opinions deserve it. Unfortunately the views of our elected representatives are not so easily corrected, and consequenly far more dictatorial.
mick
[edited by mick to correct dbCode]
[edited by mick, again, to correct numerous grammar and spellling errors]
This message has been edited by mick, 03-25-2005 07:45 PM
This message has been edited by mick, 03-25-2005 08:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Matt P, posted 03-24-2005 4:31 PM Matt P has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Matt P, posted 03-28-2005 1:22 PM mick has replied
 Message 17 by SuperDave, posted 05-07-2005 12:15 AM mick has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 6 of 21 (194527)
03-25-2005 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Matt P
03-24-2005 4:31 PM


It's very telling that these republicans are still going on about leftist totalitarianism. It's like they got stuck in the cold war (which was a war for American opinion as much as anything else) and they just can't quite stop worrying that American students might hold opinions which differ from those of the Cold Warriors... Biology profs tend to be fairly liberal, but I've never noticed one with a hammer and sickle poster on the wall.

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 21 (194530)
03-25-2005 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by gnojek
03-25-2005 6:43 PM


Re: Totally Amazing!!!
Ah! Florida! What's in the water?
i dunno, but it's been making me sick for the last few years.
sadly, that's not a joke. the water here really has been making me sick. especially on campus. i'll add something more important to this thread later, i swear.

This message is a reply to:
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Gary
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 21 (194574)
03-26-2005 1:02 AM


Reading the bill, I'm not sure that this really means that professors can be sued for teaching evolution, unless it was already possible for that to happen. I'm not a lawyer, but wouldn't one have to demonstrate that it would be appropriate to teach intelligent design in a biology classroom before they could sue?
As a UF student, I feel that if this bill allows students to sue their teachers for telling them things they don't like, my education has been greatly devalued. I worry that degrees from colleges in Florida may become less valuable than those from other places.
This message has been edited by Gary, 03-26-2005 01:06 AM

Replies to this message:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 9 of 21 (194625)
03-26-2005 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Gary
03-26-2005 1:02 AM


I sort of wonder what the "real" implication of this move could be? Since you're attending a FL school, maybe you could tell us what classes are required for undergrads. I mean, if there is no science requirement for non-science majors, the "sue over evolution" would be moot as the majority of students wouldn't encounter any mention of it in their normal course of studies. One possible way out (assuming it passes into law) would be simply to drop any science requirement. After all, if you're studying to be a biologist of some type, it's unlikely you're going to have much of a problem with evolutionary theory (I assume). Any thoughts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Gary, posted 03-26-2005 1:02 AM Gary has replied

Replies to this message:
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Gary
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 21 (194689)
03-26-2005 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Quetzal
03-26-2005 7:31 AM


The general education requirements of UF can be found here: Page Not Found - Office of the University Registrar
quote:
Natural Sciences ”Physical and Biological Sciences
Courses in the natural sciences introduce students to the basic concepts of science and the scientific method and enhance awareness of scientific developments and their impact on society and the environment. This area provides students with an understanding of scientific terms, concepts and theories, and the ability to formulate empirically testable hypotheses derived from the study of physical processes and living things.
9 hours of physical and biological sciences are required for all students. This usually translates to about three classes. Many students come to UF with a lot of college credit built up from high school, and may be exempt from all or part of any of these requirements. Also, some majors fulfill parts of the general education requirements as well - someone majoring in physics would have their physical and mathematical requirements covered.
A popular class that satisifies part of this requirement is BSC 2008, Evolution, Ecology, and Behavior. However, there are a variety of other courses to pick from that satisfy the biological requirement - Genetics, Introduction to Biological Anthropology, Local Flora of North Florida, Bugs and People, Man's Food, and others. Many of these do focus somewhat on evolution but it might not be a primary part of the course.
I would be against dropping the science requirements. I don't think anyone is harmed by learning something about the world around them and there are all sorts of classes for them to choose from if they don't like evolution. The idea behind having science requirements is that students who take these courses will become aquainted with the scientific method and the ways in which scientists have learned about the world in which we all live.

This message is a reply to:
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Gary
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 21 (194701)
03-26-2005 4:11 PM


There was a new article in the Alligator about this:
http://www.alligator.org/pt2/050324freedom.php
quote:
At the Tuesday hearing, an example Baxley cited of when students should be allowed to sue is when biology professors teach evolution as fact, failing to acknowledge Creationism.
UF evolutionary geneticist Charles Baer said while he wouldn’t mark down students for not believing in evolution, they would still be expected to complete course work.
If I was asking them to write a paper on one aspect of evolution, and they said they didn’t believe in evolution so they wouldn’t write a paper, they would be marked down, he said. If someone said, ‘I don’t believe in evolution, but if I did, this would be what I’d write,’ that would be OK. I’m not going to flunk someone for not believing in evolution.
Baer said even if he knew he could be sued he would continue teaching the same way.
Students should not be ridiculed in class, and in any context, it’s not appropriate, but some students may be touchier than others, Baer said. What seems as discussion to some people may seem inappropriate to others.

  
Matt P
Member (Idle past 4775 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 12 of 21 (194982)
03-28-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mick
03-25-2005 7:45 PM


Advice for future professor?
Thank you all for the responses. I do think this bill is fairly ridiculous, and am worried about similar legislation appearing elsewhere in the nation. I still have a year or two followed by post-doc before I'll be in a teaching position, but nevertheless, I don't want to be completely prevented in my ability to teach geology/origins of life.
Baer seems to have a very reasonable response, one which should be immune to any sort of litigation. However, I don't think that that is what Baxley has in mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mick, posted 03-25-2005 7:45 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 21 (194987)
03-28-2005 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Gary
03-26-2005 1:02 AM


I worry that degrees from colleges in Florida may become less valuable than those from other places.
Do you think you can sue a government for devaluing your degree? I predict we're about 5 years or so from a student suing their college for actions that reflect poorly on their degree, this would be an interesting wrinkle in that.

This message is a reply to:
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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 14 of 21 (194988)
03-28-2005 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Matt P
03-28-2005 1:22 PM


Re: Advice for future professor?
Matt,
If this process moves as far as you fear, you might choose the pragmatic option of teaching only in a state that permits you to teach properly. I don't see how you could ethically teach within such legal limits.
This would result in a brain drain of teachers and students from the worst states, which is not a nice scenario to imagine. Perhaps the brain drain would reverse when it reaches the point that regressive states are suffering economically, and are forced to liberalise their laws for pragmatic purposes?
mick

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 15 of 21 (194991)
03-28-2005 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Matt P
03-24-2005 4:31 PM


Actually I find it rather odd that students should be able to introduce subjects into lectures over the professor's objections. The professor is there to teach the course, not go off into tangents that some student might find relevant. If the example given is intended to be typical it seems the point is to disrupt the teaching of any subject the Religious Right takes exception to.

This message is a reply to:
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