Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   $50 to anyone who can prove to me Evolution is a lie.
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 32 of 305 (51493)
08-21-2003 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by joshua221
08-20-2003 9:50 PM


quote:
That's the problem with books that man has devised. They change, they aren't reliable. But God made my textbook and he is reliable, not man. Can you put your trust fully in any man? No, not really.
So, are you saying that the idea of learning new things and improving our understanding of the physical world is a bad thing?
I think you are faulting science for not having "ulitimate truth" in a philosophical sense. The thing is, science has never claimed to have any kind of "ultimate truth". It does not proscribe how one should behave WRT morals or ethics.
Science is a methodology which is wonderfully effective and powerful for figuring out how the physical world works.
You do realize that by rejecting Biology, you must also reject most of modern life science, don't you?
Tell me, do you get vaccinations?
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-21-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by joshua221, posted 08-20-2003 9:50 PM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Trump won, posted 08-21-2003 10:04 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 34 of 305 (51495)
08-21-2003 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Trump won
08-21-2003 10:04 AM


quote:
Or maybe your jumping to conclusions, I think hes saying that man can not be trusted like God can.
Funny, from his posts I have been getting the distinct impression that he thinks that everything in the Bible is factually true and modern Biology and Physics are false.
In fact, I think he's pretty much said that.
quote:
And I think when it comes down to it I would trust the Bible over any other book,
OK, let's imagine you are an engineer at NASA.
Your job is to help design a spacecraft to send out of the Earth's orbit to go study Saturn.
What part of the Bible is going to be helpful to you, the part about the firmament or the part about the waters above the firmament?
Or, would you rather use those man-made books dealing with physics, aerodynamics, materials science, and propulsion?
quote:
I dont think hes saying that "dont trust science!" I think hes merely stating that his faith belongs with God not with another mans.
Hes in no way (from what his reply was) condemning science.
Again, I think the opposite is quite obvious.
Besides, no one is asking him to have "faith" in science in the way one has faith in God".
That was the basis of my explanation to him about his inappropriate expectations of science as a philosophical "ultimate truth".
PS Please think about using apostrophes in the appropriate places. It's clunky and jarring to read "don't" as "dont" and "he's" as "hes".
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-21-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Trump won, posted 08-21-2003 10:04 AM Trump won has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 84 of 305 (51713)
08-21-2003 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by joshua221
08-21-2003 7:16 PM


quote:
I see where messenjah is coming from. You are making a mockery out of the Bible by trying to fit it into every possible situation. The NASA comment was just over the edge.
Look, Messenjah is the one who said that they would take the Bible as truth over all man-made books.
I simply pointed out a situation in which the Bible's "science" would be completely useless.
Don't blame me because messenjah doesn't think of the logical consequences of that which he/she writes.
So PE, if you think it's ridiculous to try to use the Bible to inform yourself on physics or engineering, why do you not think it equally ridiculous to use the Bible to inform yourself on Biology or Genetics?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by joshua221, posted 08-21-2003 7:16 PM joshua221 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 85 of 305 (51716)
08-21-2003 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by joshua221
08-21-2003 9:04 PM


quote:
Speciation | Answers in Genesis
This is what I have for Speciation.
Hit some of the topics.
OK, this is a serious question, PE.
I really want an answer.
Is your faith so weak that you need science to validate it?
Why are you going to a "scientific" Fundamentalist Christian website which openly admits that they will ignore any evidence that disagrees with what they have already decided to be true about nature before they ever even look at nature?
I mean, they just filter everything through what they want to be true. That's exactly what it says right on their website.
This is about as frigging opposite to how real science is done as you can get!
Would you go to a mechanic to get your hair cut, or would you go to an accountant to have your appendix out?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by joshua221, posted 08-21-2003 9:04 PM joshua221 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 305 (51718)
08-21-2003 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by joshua221
08-21-2003 9:13 PM


quote:
But there isn't.
There's plenty of evidence for evolution.
Do you really think that in a very contentious profession where the most famous people are the ones who smash the status quo would conspire to all basically agree with one another for a hundred years just to perpetuate a lie? For what reason would they do this. And, if it all was a lie, how is it that something called the "Modern Synthesis", which is the incorporation of the very new field of Genetics with the rather older field of Evolutionary Biology, could ever have happened?
What Genetics shows is that, to a very large degree, Darwin was right.
Anyway, upon what knowledge base of Evolutionary Biology do you base this bold assertion?
How many college Biology courses or Genetics courses have you completed? How many times have you read through TalkOrigins? How much Dawkins, Gould, or even Darwin have you ever read? Have you ever read any science without the religious filters?
Surely, you aren't deciding what is true about nature before you even look at any evidence, are you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by joshua221, posted 08-21-2003 9:13 PM joshua221 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 88 of 305 (51720)
08-21-2003 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by joshua221
08-21-2003 9:26 PM


quote:
Yes there has-by far. When combined with the "SPRINGS THAT BURST FORTH, a global flood occured.
If a global flood occurred, then how come organisms of similar density didn't end up in the same geologic layers?
Why aren't pterosaurs ever found in the same layers as similar-sized birds?
Why are flowering plants, including grasses never, everfound in the lowest layers?
Why are the fossils found all over the world ordered in exactly the same way, which is not by density?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by joshua221, posted 08-21-2003 9:26 PM joshua221 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 90 of 305 (51724)
08-21-2003 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by joshua221
08-21-2003 11:06 PM


quote:
I leave you saying, I believe there is proof for Creation, might be yet to be discovered, all I know is that there is proof. I also believe the Flood has happened. All the proof AiG ICR DRDINO and many more have given is for the most part valid. I rely on them a lot to learn and debate on topic. I will also state that I believe Evolution is False and I believe that there is proof for that as well.
So, you believe in Creation not because of any convincing EXISTING evidence, but because of some that might be discovered in the future.
Oh, wait, you go on to say that there actually IS proof and that a crackpot who bought his degree from a diploma mill run out of a split level and a website which openly professes that they ignore and reject any evidence that they don't happen to like are the best places to find it.
The funny part is that even some Creationist sites have decided that Hovind is a wacko should be ignored!
Finally, you state that you believe that evolution is false and that there is evidence to support it, yet you have not provided any such evidence on this board, even though it is the perfect place to do so.
Wow.
All that willful ignorance and desperate fearful clinging to a hollow, childish reading of the Bible culminates in the best part of all:
quote:
If you think I am just wimping out and if you think I got "beat" I don't care, just telling you I dont think I have.
He runs away from the debate because he has not a leg to stand on, he doesn't comment upon most of the evidence put before him, he puts forth NOTHING that calls any evolutionary claim into question, and then declares (to soothe himself, I suppose) that he, in fact, has not run away.
PE, you truly are a great Creationists in the worst sense of the word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by joshua221, posted 08-21-2003 11:06 PM joshua221 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 161 of 305 (63518)
10-30-2003 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by PeriferaliiFocust
10-30-2003 5:51 PM


Hi NEC,
quote:
Yeah that was stupid of me to say, what we think doesn't change the way things are--- by the same tolken, evolution is something someone thought up.
That evolution is "something someone thought up" is true, I suppose, but the evidence for evolution is something literally tens, maybe hunderds of thousands of scientists over the last 150 years or so have observed.
You can observe it too, and you can also read a great deal of current research. The TalkOrigins website Evolution FAQ's are a great place to start. The library is another good place.
quote:
i still think there is a scientific bias to fill in holes and claim it is one hundred percent fact.
Exaples of this happening, please.
The truth is, science doesn't work this way. In fact, science works opposite to this way.
The following essay is a great explanation of what science is and isn't, and how it works:
science - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
quote:
People have told me i should read some books on evolution if i want to know more. For one thing i am in AP biology, i've read the chapters on evolution. I would guess that does not have all the details, but i do not understand why the details it leaves out cannot be summarized for me before i spend money on a book.
What details do you want to know about? There are several actual Biologists, Geologists, etc. on this site which can help you a lot in this regard.
quote:
I know you'll think its stupid of me to not even try to know, and that if i have faith i should not have fear of reading and considering what is written. But i do think i have reason to be cautious, if you don't agree with me please forget i mentioned this (as i know it will go against points on my intelligence) , that i will be numbed to the subtle ignorances the evolutionists that write it share, and i will forget my questions and become either a clone of everyone else who fully supports the theory, or i will choose to deny it, then i don't know what will happen.
Why do you fear knowledge? Knowledge leads to enlightenment and understanding and fights ignorance and sloppy thinking. It prevents poor descisions and leads to new insights. It is nothing to fear.
Anyway, you have a VERY distorted view of science if you think that eveyone who accepts the evidence for evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life on Earth as "a clone of everyone else who fully supports the theory."
Do you fear becoming a "clone of everyone else who accepts the theory" that matter is made of atoms, or the theory that the Sun is the center of the solar system, or the theory that germs cause disease?
The Theory of Evolution is an extremely well-supported scientific theory, just like all those others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by PeriferaliiFocust, posted 10-30-2003 5:51 PM PeriferaliiFocust has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 182 of 305 (64127)
11-03-2003 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by PeriferaliiFocust
11-03-2003 8:40 AM


quote:
I may want to learn about the bacteria at some point, i think that since there's a lot more variation on small levels, finding evolution here wouldn't conflict with my beliefs, plus don't all bacteria only have one chromosome anyway?
No, although multiple bacterial chromosomes are relatively uncommon:
mmg.uth.tmc.edu/sphaeroides/people/chris/genetics.pdf
quote:
Also finding evolution at all is not exactly a problem with me, really my concern is that the term evolution has been used to assume more than can really be proven.
Like what, specifically?
You keep making these broad statements about how evolution does or doesn't "prove" stuff, but so far you haven't gone into any detail about what, specifically, you think it is doing that it shouldn't.
We can't address these things if you avoid the specifics.
quote:
Even if it can be proven it doesn't matter to faith though, faith doesn't care about proof (well certain kinds it does, there has to be some reason for faith, but it doesn't function like science).
You are absolutely correct, which is why 40% of scientists believe in God and the vast majority of religious people accept science.
quote:
Done research about chromosome addition/deletion?
Thats what i'm trying to do here, i think i'd be better off another way though, but thanks for the help, sorry if i been defensive myself and all, i may continue to learn about this on my own, i think trying to find out in this method is just too time consuming.
Do some basic self-education about evolution first, before delving into genetics and microbiology.
Try the following website:
The Talk.Origins Archive: Must-Read FAQs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by PeriferaliiFocust, posted 11-03-2003 8:40 AM PeriferaliiFocust has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 212 of 305 (66537)
11-14-2003 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by DavidPryor
11-13-2003 6:40 PM


quote:
Know, the bird was not a reptile either, it was supposedly a mammal.
Wow!
a bird that gave birth to live young and produced milk?
That's pretty crazy.
Are there any pictures you can link to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by DavidPryor, posted 11-13-2003 6:40 PM DavidPryor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Rei, posted 11-14-2003 7:05 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 216 of 305 (66782)
11-16-2003 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Rei
11-14-2003 7:05 PM


ROTFLMAO!!!
I'm keeping that one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Rei, posted 11-14-2003 7:05 PM Rei has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024