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Author Topic:   Pakicetus being presented with webbed feet.
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 286 of 305 (265108)
12-02-2005 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by randman
12-02-2005 5:13 PM


what kind of webs?
These examples, at least the 2 with pics, seem a little less webbed than the depiction of Paki though.
well, that wouldn't be suprising. sitatunga's don't eat fish, they just live in marshes and swim a whole lot -- they are not as aquatic as pakicetus was. it's also important to note that sitatungas don't walk very well on land, and that they commonly swim up their eyeballs, which are not on the top of their head. we're looking at an animal less adapted to water than pakicetus.
but looking at the original pakicetus picture, i don't understand your complaint. it's really hard to make out the specifics of the foot in that depiction, and in your favored depiction it's toes look a lot like a hippos, only skinnier.
in other words, it seems to have webbed feet in the depiction you like. the first two paintings/drawings do have incorrect feet, displaying the wrong kind of webbing; a membrane instead of fat-filled leathery tissue. both are still aquatic adaptations.
so, i think i've figured out the confusion here. maybe. you don't like the otter-like webbing in the national geographic interpretation -- you would technically be right. that's the wrong kind of webbing. but it still very likely had the other kind of webbing, like hippos and sitatungas.

אָרַח

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 Message 282 by randman, posted 12-02-2005 5:13 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by randman, posted 12-02-2005 5:56 PM arachnophilia has replied

randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 287 of 305 (265112)
12-02-2005 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by arachnophilia
12-02-2005 5:46 PM


Re: what kind of webs?
we're looking at an animal less adapted to water than pakicetus.
You keep making the same false claim; that Pakicetus was somehow specially adapted for water. It's not more adapted for water than a bear or human being. Bears and people eat fish too. That doesn't make us aquatic or semi-aquatic. Being able to swim and being adapted such that you are aquatic or semi-aquatic are not the same thing, no matter how much you insist they are.
Paki is adapted for land. He's a land mammal. He's not "adapted for water." Can he swim? Yep. So can dogs, rats and all sorts of animals adapted for life on land and not for water. That doesn't make him an aquatic animal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2005 5:46 PM arachnophilia has replied

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 Message 290 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2005 6:11 PM randman has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 288 of 305 (265114)
12-02-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by randman
12-02-2005 5:39 PM


a whale with hooves
you haven't answered any counter-points about why it actually is related to whales.
and it's evidently not solely a land mammal. sitatunga is considered "semi-aquatic" and it has a lot of similar to pakicetus (only slightly less aquatic -- it doesn't hunt fish). i think it's a problem of definitions here. no one is arguing that pakicetus isn't a walking animal. it's just a walking animal that also swims, like the sitatunga. it lives near river-beds and marshes, like the sitatunga. it has hooves that splay, like the sitatunga (only they splay more). the sitatunga is a land mammal, no question about it. it's just a semi-aquatic land mammal.
but about the question of definitions, creationists like to have distinct lines of what's what. so such and such a species is "just a whale" and another species is "just a goat." (sic) this is not what the evidence shows -- it shows a clear pattern, relations, and progression. the "goat" and the "whale" have a long line of species at various points in between them, that are all clearly (if loosely) related. any lines are arbitrary, even the ones evolutionary biologists assign.
so the question now is where you draw the line between "just a whale" and "just a goat." earlier, i posted:
quote:
let's start from another angle: would agree that basilosaurus here is a whale?

is basilosaurus a whale?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 289 of 305 (265115)
12-02-2005 6:11 PM


Is Ambulocetus older than Pakicetus?
Since you guys are determined to take the conversation off-topic with the backing of the evo-mods on the thread, please note the following. It appears that Ambulocetus has been found in strata 400 feet higher than Pakicetus, and yet Pakicetus is reportedly a couple of million years older and ancestral to Ambulocetus
It is reported that the fossil of Ambulocetus was found in a silt and mud-stone bed which contained impressions of leaves and abundant Turritella, a marine gastropod.[6] This would suggest that it lived near the seashore, feeding possibly on land animals and/or plants, and perhaps foraging into shallow seas to feed on gastropods and molluscs. They report that the fossil beds are lower-to-middle Eocene beds, and about 120 meters (approximately 390 feet) higher than those in which Pakucetus was found. Berta, in her comments on the paper by Thewissen, et al . , gives an age of 52 million years for the sediments in Pakistan where Ambulocetus was found. Thewissen and his coworkers in their paper mention an age of 52 million years for the age of Pakicetus, which they refer to as the "oldest cetacean." Ambulocetus, bearing large forelimbs and hooved hind limbs, was found in strata nearly 400 feet higher than Pakicetus. It therefore cannot be older. Pakicetus is called the oldest cetacean. Yet it is said that Ambulocetus documents transitional modes of locomotion in the evolution of whales. Confused? So are we. It is reported that the teeth resemble those of other archeocetes, which evolutionists believe were either archaic whales or ancestral to whales. The teeth of archeocetes are, however, so similar to mesonychid ungulates, believed to be wolf-like carnivorous mammals, that two of the archeocetes, Gandakasia and Ichthykstes, known only from teeth, were originally classified as mesonychids.[7]
G. A. Mchedlidze, a Russian expert on whales, while maintaining that Archeoceti occupy an intermediate position between terrestrial mammals and typical Cetacea, states that the problem of the phylogenedc relationship between Archeoceti and modern Cetacea is a highly controversial issue. He reports that a number of authors consider that the Archeoceti are a completely isolated group having nothing in common with typical Cetacean.[9] If this opinion is correct, then the archeocetes, supposedly archaic whales, were not whales at all and did not give rise to whales (cetaceans).
The Institute for Creation Research
The article above is a little out of date, but informative as to how these claims unfolded. Another relevant snippet:
Perhaps we should not be surprised that Thewissen and coworkers would dare to call Ambulocetus a "whale" when we note the fact that Robert Carroll, in his voluminous tome, Vertebrate Paleontology and Evolution, made the incredible statement that "Despite the extreme difference in habitue, it is logical from the standpoint of phylogenetic classification to include the mesonychids among the Cetaceans."[11] Incredible, indeed! The mesonychids were wolf-like, hoofed carnivores that, as far as anyone knows, never went near the water.
So the pattern of trying to include land mammals as cetaceans preexisted already.
What may we conclude from all of this? Most evolutionists, certain that whales and other aquatic mammals must have evolved from land mammals, would stretch their imagination to whatever extent necessary to declare that Ambulocetus, a creature with powerful forelimbs and hind limbs (the latter bearing hooves), unable to dive to any significant depth or to hear directionally under water, was nevertheless, a whale. On the other hand, not biased by any such presupposition, we conclude that, first of all, it is ridiculous to call the creature a whale, and secondly, that it was certainly not an intermediate between a land mammal and a whale, but was more likely a near-shore carnivore whose exact behavior and habitue is as yet a topic only for speculation.
When we consider these profound proclamations by evolutionists we should bear in mind that they were equally convinced when they suggested human evolutionary ancestors, such as Ramapithecus, now recognized to be essentially the same as a modern orangutan; Piltdown Man, a fraud that was nothing more than the jawbone of a modern ape and a human skull; Nebraska Man, that turned out to be a pig's tooth; and Neanderthal Man, a supposed primitive subhuman that is now recognized by most paleoanthropologists as fully human, Homo sapiens, who suffered from pathological conditions, such as arthritis and rickets, a vitamin D deficiency. If evolutionists can get an evolutionary ancestor of man from nothing more than a pig's tooth, it should be no challenge to get a whale from a creature that walked on land.
I see a pattern here. Jump to conclusions; overstate your case, and never admit it. It's called stonewalling in the political arena.
This message has been edited by randman, 12-02-2005 06:13 PM

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 290 of 305 (265116)
12-02-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by randman
12-02-2005 5:56 PM


Re: what kind of webs?
You keep making the same false claim; that Pakicetus was somehow specially adapted for water. It's not more adapted for water than a bear or human being. Bears and people eat fish too. That doesn't make us aquatic or semi-aquatic.
here is a bear skull:
here are human teeth:
here is a pakicetus skull:
bears and humans are omnivores. we have teeth specifically adapted for different purposes. pakicetus's teeth are all very much the same, and clearly indicate that it eats things that live in water, and ONLY things that live in water. those teeth in front are good for catching slippery things in water, like fish. the ones in the middle or basically steak knives. it's molars are pointed -- no plant grinding here.
eating fish doesn't make something semi-aquatic, no. but being specially adapted to eat ONLY fish does.
Being able to swim and being adapted such that you are aquatic or semi-aquatic are not the same thing, no matter how much you insist they are.
not insisting that.
Paki is adapted for land. He's a land mammal.
ok, looking at some info on sitatunga, i want to point something out again. look at it's foot. can you name me any artiodactyl that walks on SPLAYED hooves? they're actually not good for land at all -- ask sitatunga, who kind of wobbles and braces.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by randman, posted 12-02-2005 5:56 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by randman, posted 12-02-2005 6:20 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 293 by randman, posted 12-02-2005 6:28 PM arachnophilia has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 291 of 305 (265118)
12-02-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by arachnophilia
12-02-2005 6:11 PM


cute pics but no real claim on your part
pakicetus's teeth are all very much the same, and clearly indicate that it eats things that live in water, and ONLY things that live in water.
Basically, your claim is that Pakicetus was adapted to ONLY eat things that live in water, right?
Mesonychids had the same teeth, and they were not aquatic and ate things on land. So that kills your whole argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2005 6:11 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2005 6:32 PM randman has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 292 of 305 (265119)
12-02-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by randman
12-02-2005 6:11 PM


Re: Is Ambulocetus older than Pakicetus?
It appears that Ambulocetus has been found in strata 400 feet higher than Pakicetus, and yet Pakicetus is reportedly a couple of million years older and ancestral to Ambulocetus
not suprising, actually. things don't exist for just an instant. if you found the very first ambulocetus, it would be well before the very last pakicetus. one did not descend from the other, they are merely related and share a common ancestor.
it's basically the "if humans evolved from monkeys, why do we still have monkeys?" question in disguise. suppose an alien race finds a modern monkey skeleton 40 million years from now, and then finds lucy who's several million years older. it's the same "problem."
He reports that a number of authors consider that the Archeoceti are a completely isolated group having nothing in common with typical Cetacean.[9] If this opinion is correct, then the archeocetes, supposedly archaic whales, were not whales at all and did not give rise to whales (cetaceans).
which might actually be right. but it indicates a trend nonetheless. since the line is not direct (as i described above) technically no "ancestral" whale is the ancestor of a modern whale. they just indicate the trend.
"Despite the extreme difference in habitue, it is logical from the standpoint of phylogenetic classification to include the mesonychids among the Cetaceans."[11] Incredible, indeed! The mesonychids were wolf-like, hoofed carnivores that, as far as anyone knows, never went near the water.
any argument from incredulity if i ever heard one. the problem is that whales are cetaceans, but not all cetaceans are whales. it's a category that INCLUDES whales, but also dolphins and porpoises.
what we're faced with is an order called "cetacea" that includes some aquatic forms, and some not-so-aquatic forms. in this case, artiodactyls include cetaceans, which include mesonychids and archeocetids, which include pakicetus. are also included, though under which bubble i'm not sure.
calling pakicetus a whale may or may not be correct. i argue that it is, because it is clearly an archaeocetid, which are generally considered whale-like. but whether or not he's a whale, he's definitally a cetacean.

אָרַח

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 293 of 305 (265120)
12-02-2005 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by arachnophilia
12-02-2005 6:11 PM


Re: what kind of webs?
You do realize, by the way, that the evos making the claim of Pakicetus being a cetacean do not claim it had teeth similar to modern whales.
Here is something from Thiwessen's web-site.
Pakiceid teeth look a lot like those of fossil whales, but are unlike those of modern whales. Pakicetids did not live in the sea. The rocks in which their fossils are preserved indicate that the bones were buried in a shallow stream, and that the climate was hot and dry. It is likely that pakicetids waded in these streams.
http://www.neoucom.edu/...Thewissen/whale_origins/index.html
Also, no one to my knowledge claims Pakicetus' teeth were adapted only for eating fish as you claim. You seem to have a lot of false concepts about what your side of the debate claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2005 6:11 PM arachnophilia has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 294 of 305 (265123)
12-02-2005 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by randman
12-02-2005 6:20 PM


Re: cute pics but no real claim on your part
Basically, your claim is that Pakicetus was adapted to ONLY eat things that live in water, right?
Mesonychids had the same teeth, and they were not aquatic and ate things on land. So that kills your whole argument.
no no, go back and look at the bit that you posted about why mesonychids were thought to be related to modern whales at first, and then the scientific community change its mind. that decision was based on differences in the teeth
here's two skulls. the top is from a mesonychid (andrewsarchus) and the bottom is a whale (prozeuglodon).
see the difference? mesonychid teeth look much more like bear teeth than they do whale teeth.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by randman, posted 12-02-2005 6:20 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 295 of 305 (265124)
12-02-2005 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by arachnophilia
12-02-2005 6:32 PM


Re: cute pics but no real claim on your part
They still were making the argument of relatedness based on teeth, and teeth that are not peculiar to aquatic animals by the way (some bats have similar teeth), and moreover, there is no claim Pakicetus was adapted only for eating fish that I know of.
Certainly, Thiwessen doesn't claim that.
Plus, you mentioned sharks having similar teeth, and Great Whites are known to feed on seals. So the whole teeth claims on your part are way overblown, and fact is these teeth are not similar to modern whales anyway.
This message has been edited by randman, 12-02-2005 06:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2005 6:32 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by arachnophilia, posted 12-02-2005 6:50 PM randman has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 296 of 305 (265125)
12-02-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by randman
12-02-2005 6:28 PM


more on teeth
You do realize, by the way, that the evos making the claim of Pakicetus being a cetacean do not claim it had teeth similar to modern whales.
i didn't say they did. just that they were more like whale-teeth than mesonychid teeth. they're actually a lot like shark teeth, which indicates a similar diet. that was the only point i was trying to make.
pakicetus's teeth are noticeably less conical than a modern whale's.
Also, no one to my knowledge claims Pakicetus' teeth were adapted only for eating fish as you claim.
see if you can find something about what it ate.
quote:
Pakiceid teeth look a lot like those of fossil whales, but are unlike those of modern whales. Pakicetids did not live in the sea. The rocks in which their fossils are preserved indicate that the bones were buried in a shallow stream, and that the climate was hot and dry. It is likely that pakicetids waded in these streams.
yes, sort of like sitatunga does. wades, lives in marshes, and swims. it's still primarily a land animal, and no one is arguing that randman. really. it's just slightly adapted to life in and around water, it doesn't live there full time.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 297 of 305 (265126)
12-02-2005 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by arachnophilia
12-02-2005 6:32 PM


Re: cute pics but no real claim on your part
Looks similar to a croc to me.
Crocs eat land animals, not just fish.
This message has been edited by randman, 12-02-2005 06:41 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 298 of 305 (265127)
12-02-2005 6:47 PM


comparison woth crocodiles
crocodile
a cetacean skull
This message has been edited by randman, 12-02-2005 06:47 PM

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 299 of 305 (265129)
12-02-2005 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by randman
12-02-2005 6:35 PM


Re: cute pics but no real claim on your part
They still were making the argument of relatedness based on teeth, and teeth that are not peculiar to aquatic animals by the way (some bats have similar teeth)
randman, remember what you said about education and thinking critically instead of indoctrination? i'm posting pictures because i'm asking you to look at them.
mesonychids have somewhat triangular teeth. archaeocetids have teeth that are more triangular. modern whale teeh are conical (if they have teeth). the argument for relation is based on the teeth -- pakicetus is more related to whales that mesonychids are. not everything is cut and dry and arbitrary.
just look at the picture -- do they look the same? do they have similarites, even if they're not identical?
Certainly, Thiwessen doesn't claim that.
and?
Plus, you mentioned sharks having similar teeth, and Great Whites are known to feed on seals.
as are cetaceans, btw. but i'm not sure whether or not there were seals in eocene. my vague reference to "things that live in the water" hypothetically includes seal ancestors.
This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 12-02-2005 06:50 PM

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by randman, posted 12-02-2005 6:35 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by randman, posted 12-02-2005 6:58 PM arachnophilia has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 300 of 305 (265130)
12-02-2005 6:50 PM


What is this arach?
a pseudo-orca, right
here's the skull of a modern german shepherd:
another cetacean?
crocodile
This message has been edited by randman, 12-02-2005 06:55 PM

Replies to this message:
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