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Author Topic:   Teaching Children Both Sides
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 62 (416763)
08-17-2007 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ringo
08-17-2007 5:10 PM


Re: Update

You're not paying attention. The books are in response to questions (that you claim are being discouraged). The books are an extension of what little I can tell them. The books are a bridge to what their teachers can tell them. The books encourage them to find things out for themselves.

You're suggesting that a 5 year old will learn from a book something you are not knowledgable enough to explain to them? We are oming back to the initial begining of all this conversation, it was about a mother explaining things to her 5 year old daughter. Don't pretend this is suddenly about teaching things to a 17 year old.


I'm certainly not discouraging people from being involved in their children's education. I'm discouraging people from going too far on their own.

That's exactly what you did do and say. Who is to determine what's 'too far'? You? Based on what you think you know or don't know? These aren't graduate level questions. I should hope the average parent would be capable of knowing a subject at the level of up to a 12 YO.


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 08-17-2007 5:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 08-17-2007 6:58 PM EighteenDelta has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 62 (416765)
08-17-2007 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by EighteenDelta
08-17-2007 4:07 PM


Re: Update
quote:
I am kind of appalled that people seem to think that the 'average parent' isn't qualified to teach their own kids.

About science? Or many other subjects? No, I absolutely don't think that the average parent knows anything close to enough about science, history, mathematics, economics, computer skills literature, English, physics, health, etc. to be qualified to teach more than the bare basics. Even then they will probably get a lot wrong.

If a parent is a physicist or a computer programmer or a investment banker, or a carpenter, or a journalist they would probably be good at teaching certain parts of certain subjects. But I wouldn't expect the Physicist to have a deep knowledge of, say, medieval European history, or the journalist to be able to teach a great lesson on the properties of matter and energy.

Look, there are people who go to college for quite a long time to become professionals at relaying information to children. Even then, with all of that instruiction, some of them aren't especially good at it.

What makes you think that a parent with no specialized training in teaching children, and even less knowledge of a lot of different subjects, is better qualified at teaching than a professional?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 4:07 PM EighteenDelta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 7:00 PM nator has responded
 Message 50 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 7:15 PM nator has responded
 Message 62 by anastasia, posted 08-23-2007 4:47 PM nator has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17281
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 48 of 62 (416767)
08-17-2007 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by EighteenDelta
08-17-2007 6:40 PM


Re: Update
EighteenDelta writes:

You're suggesting that a 5 year old will learn from a book something you are not knowledgable enough to explain to them?

Of course. Do you think I know everything in every book for 5-year-olds?

Who is to determine what's 'too far'?

Everybody has to try to understand their own limitations.

Based on what you think you know or don't know?

Based on what they know and don't know. Everybody comes to a point where they don't know. It's important to be able to admit to themselves that they don't know, that somebody else knows better.

I should hope the average parent would be capable of knowing a subject at the level of up to a 12 YO.

I doubt if one parent in a hundred could teach science to a twelve-year-old.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 6:40 PM EighteenDelta has not yet responded

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 4322 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 49 of 62 (416769)
08-17-2007 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by nator
08-17-2007 6:51 PM


Re: Update
I think the assumption here is that I plan to homeschool my kids and teach them only what I know from the top of my head. Please, I may not have a college education, but I am not stupid. I am perfectly capable of teaching my children many things, and many of those things they will learn more about in school, and much of it I will have to learn or relearn. I am well aware of this.
I plan to be involved in my childs education on ALL subjects, not as a substitute for school, but in additon to.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 08-17-2007 6:51 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 7:20 PM Dragoness has not yet responded
 Message 52 by nator, posted 08-17-2007 7:23 PM Dragoness has not yet responded

    
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 62 (416773)
08-17-2007 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by nator
08-17-2007 6:51 PM


Re: Update
How many 5 year olds need to know about midieval european history? We are talking about idiots chastizing a woman for the answers she gave her 5 YO. We are talking about the basics, nothing more in this case.

Read the damn topic before you develop diarhea of the mouth.


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 08-17-2007 6:51 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by nator, posted 08-17-2007 7:30 PM EighteenDelta has responded

  
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 62 (416775)
08-17-2007 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dragoness
08-17-2007 7:00 PM


Re: Update
Anyone who read that into this conversation is looking for reasons to carry on an arguement they have already invested too much in to back down when they show their level of ignorance. Dragoness Home schooling is the best suppliment you can give to their education, I would agree that exclusive home schooling is failure at every level from socialization skills to knowledge opportunites.


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 7:00 PM Dragoness has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 52 of 62 (416776)
08-17-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dragoness
08-17-2007 7:00 PM


Re: Update
quote:
I think the assumption here is that I plan to homeschool my kids and teach them only what I know from the top of my head.

No, that was not my assumption, although I can only speak for myself.

quote:
Please, I may not have a college education, but I am not stupid. I am perfectly capable of teaching my children many things, and many of those things they will learn more about in school, and much of it I will have to learn or relearn. I am well aware of this.
I plan to be involved in my childs education on ALL subjects, not as a substitute for school, but in additon to.

Sure, that's great.

Nobody ever said you were stupid, you know.

I have a niece who took calculus when she was a freshman in high school. If she had been my child, I wouldn't have had a clue how to help her with that. She easily surpassed my mathematical training by the time she was about 11. Now, she did love horses back then and she used to ask me all sorts of questions about them, which I could answer, since I have a lot of education about horses.

Our point is that most parents are not educated in most things their children need to learn. That doesn't make them stupid, it just makes them uninformed.

What WOULD make a parent stupid is if they tried to pretend that they know something or know how to teach something when they don't. (You've got to admit that this sort of attitude is rampant in our country).

Again, not saying that this is what you are doing or are going to do.

Edited by nator, : to fix the spelling of the word "stupid" hahahaha


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 7:00 PM Dragoness has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 53 of 62 (416778)
08-17-2007 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by EighteenDelta
08-17-2007 7:15 PM


Re: Update
quote:
How many 5 year olds need to know about midieval european history?

If they ask about it, what would you say?

quote:
We are talking about idiots chastizing a woman for the answers she gave her 5 YO.

Nobody really chastized her. They criticized what she did, because she asked people their opinions on what was done. She became rather defensive and IMO overreacted.

I'm pretty sure that 1) she's a big girl and can deal with things here on her own without the need for a defender such as yourself, and 2) trying to shame or shout people down will not work well here.

quote:
We are talking about the basics, nothing more in this case.

What, nobody's allowed to talk about "more" just becasue you said so?

quote:
Read the damn topic before you develop diarhea of the mouth.

And I will thank you to keep your temper tantrums off the board.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 7:15 PM EighteenDelta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 7:46 PM nator has not yet responded
 Message 55 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 7:50 PM nator has not yet responded

    
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 62 (416780)
08-17-2007 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by nator
08-17-2007 7:30 PM


Re: Update

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many 5 year olds need to know about midieval european history?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If they ask about it, what would you say?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are talking about idiots chastizing a woman for the answers she gave her 5 YO.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nobody really chastized her. They criticized what she did, because she asked people their opinions on what was done. She became rather defensive and IMO overreacted.

I'm pretty sure that 1) she's a big girl and can deal with things here on her own without the need for a defender such as yourself, and 2) trying to shame or shout people down will not work well here.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are talking about the basics, nothing more in this case.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What, nobody's allowed to talk about "more" just becasue you said so?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read the damn topic before you develop diarhea of the mouth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I will thank you to keep your temper tantrums off the board.

And Elephants don't eat vanilla ice creame.

The perfect non-sequiter to end this string of pure non-sense.

Edited by EighteenDelta, : grammar


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by nator, posted 08-17-2007 7:30 PM nator has not yet responded

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 4322 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 55 of 62 (416781)
08-17-2007 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by nator
08-17-2007 7:30 PM


Re: Update
quote:
Nobody really chastized her. They criticized what she did, because she asked people their opinions on what was done. She became rather defensive and IMO overreacted.

Anytime anyone IMO takes a stab at my parenting in ANY way I will react. Just because I reacted does not mean I have over reacted. I have not used any foul language or shouted, or pouted, or stormed off upset. I simply defending myself as a parent, something I will always do. I asked in this topic how others would have handled it or how they have handled it, NOT how everyone thinks I should have done it. There is a huge difference.

Believe it or not I am a very laid back person. I don't pretend to know everything, nor do I prented I or my children are perfect. Far from it. If one of my children had a problem such as a learning disability I would be the first, not the last to address it. I know I can't teach many things, but I can give my child a foundation and thats exactly what I am doing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by nator, posted 08-17-2007 7:30 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17281
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 56 of 62 (416784)
08-17-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dragoness
08-17-2007 7:50 PM


Re: Update
Dragoness writes:

Anytime anyone IMO takes a stab at my parenting in ANY way I will react.

You're welcome to react. Expect people to react back. :)


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 7:50 PM Dragoness has not yet responded

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 4322 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 57 of 62 (416786)
08-17-2007 8:07 PM


Well as long as we can all respectfully react.

Now pardon me while I go take crae of the path of destruction left by someone elses kid... someone who doesnt EVER discipline their kid. This 5 year odl actually PUSHED my CRAWLING infant son over so he hit his head because this child didnt want him near him. Ohhh I am steamed right now. You can critisize that parent all you want... my kids would NEVER behave so poorly! I to make matters worse, I have to babysit him tomorrow and its my sons 3rd birthday!


    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1546 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 58 of 62 (416787)
08-17-2007 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dragoness
08-17-2007 2:42 PM


Re: Update
Going backward.

Dragoness writes:

When I joined this site I was told that the scientists scared a lot of Creationsist off. I don't think its the beliefs that scare people, I think its constantly being made to feel stupid for not having the same education. No one wants to stick around where people belittle them for not being "smart enough" to teach their own kids. That is hurtful.


I am certainly not belittling you. For now, I do not have any kid of my own, although the wife and I are applying to adopt. I can tell you that I will not be qualified to answer many of the questions they will have. I got my degree in physics and math. I majored in biology so I have a little bit of background in it. I know next to nothing about geology and the various other fields that are out there. So, while I can answer technical questions in math and physics and a little bit in biology, I certainly can't answer any in geology or poetry or psychology. I tend to refrain myself from having an opinion in those areas.

What I definitely have to offer to my children-to-be is an informed view on morality, tolerance, and a way to critically approach an issue with a rational mindset.

Just because I am not college eduacated and didn't take a semester of biology does not disqualify me from teaching my children. That in itself is hurtful.

You misunderstood me. You are certainly qualified to teach your children how to be decent human beings (I hope). You are certainly qualified to teach your children subjects that you are very well knowledgable in. But ask yourself this question. How would it help your child to understand science if someone approaches her with the platypus example as proof of creationism and you can't refute it?

Gee, mommy knew a lot about evolution and she couldn't even refute this, so evolution must be false.

And letting the school handle things is the same answer thats landed far too many kids on the wrong side of the tracks.

Well, now you're just thinking about irresponsible parents that don't talk to their kids at all. That's not what I am advocating. I am advocating we teach our children how to develop their sense of morality, their sense of intellectual approach, and their sense of human reason. But if we aren't experts in certain facts, it's best that we leave it to the real experts to provide the answers.

Teachers are not the parents of our kids. My childs education is MY responsibilty first and foremost, no way I trust that the schools will teach her all she needs to know in life.

And in no way have I indicated that we should leave the schools to teach everything our children need to know in life.

Wait till college? Are you serious? What if she doesnt choose college, what if she chooses a trade, military, or God Forbid (pun intended) what if she chooses to simple be a mom like I have done? What then? She enters the real world without a clue? No way.

If she chooses not to go to college, then at least we can hope for her to know her limitations and be humble about what she knows and what she does not know.

If there's one thing I've learned in my life experiences, it's that there are just subjects that I shouldn't be allowed to speak authoritatively on. I have many nieces and nephews, all from the ages of 0 to 9, and what I have noticed personally is that they pretty much believe everything we tell them. One time I accidently told my 6 year old nephew that there was a dragon in the church, and for the next year every sunday he would be looking for the dragon after church service.

But that aside, be assured that I am not saying you shouldn't teach your kids anything. I am saying that we as adults should foremost be aware of our limitations and try not to give false or deceptive answers to our children.

That says to me that a child such as MINE can't learn this, but others can. Maybe thats not how it was implied, but it IS how it feels.

No, that just means kids like yours shouldn't be burdened too much with this kind of issue. We have full grown adults here who just can't understand the concept of natural selection. We have full grown adults here who doesn't believe in evolution yet believe wholeheartedly that Noah was able to keep alive 2 representatives of every land dwelling species on Earth for a whole year inside his ark. we have full grown adults here who believe wholeheartedly that kankaroos somehow swam for thousands of miles over open ocean from the middle east to where they are now.

Sure, teach your kid to be rational. But isn't it too early to motivate her to dig into this issue? Are you sure you have adequate knowledge to answer her questions? In my case, I'd been having to say "I don't know" to many of the questions my nieces and nephews have for me. I certainly know I'm not qualified to teach them about rocks.

It was these three statements in particular that i found upsetting. I dont know if you are a parent, but if you are a mother you would KNOW these statemnts about your children will ALWAYS come off as a reflection of your parenting.

Yes, I realize that. I'm sorry that I have upset you, but please read what I said again. Evolution is a complicated subject. So is quantum mechanics. Just because I have a degree in physics doesn't mean I will expect my 10 or 15 year old to understand it. And if he wouldn't understand it, doesn't mean I'm a bad parent.

I think there are better ways to see a part of ourselves in our kids other than how they understand (or not understand) certain subjects, especially subjects we're not familiar with.

Going back to evolution, I have been a long time advocate of not teaching the theory in high school. That's right, I don't think most high school kids are mature enough to understand this theory. This is why anti-evolutionism and creationism are so popular among teens.

But anyway, sorry to have dipped my nose into this matter. You asked for opinion and I gave mine. Please understand that I have not nor will I ever belittle you. I am more educated in evolutionary biology. I'm pretty sure you are more educated on other subjects. And if this makes you feel better, compared to many people here, I am not very bright as well as not very educated. At best, I can wiggle my ears as a last resort to impress people.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 2:42 PM Dragoness has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 8:16 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 4322 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 59 of 62 (416789)
08-17-2007 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Taz
08-17-2007 8:11 PM


Re: Update
Thanks for clairifing all that. Good luck with your adoption,I understand its a long hard road, but WELL worth it. I can promise kids are always worth it.

Off too cook dinner now, my kids are starving.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Taz, posted 08-17-2007 8:11 PM Taz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by StrawberryPatchBug, posted 08-17-2007 11:34 PM Dragoness has responded

    
StrawberryPatchBug
Junior Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 08-08-2007


Message 60 of 62 (416807)
08-17-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dragoness
08-17-2007 8:16 PM


Re: Update
"But ask yourself this question. How would it help your child to understand science if someone approaches her with the platypus example as proof of creationism and you can't refute it?"

I think the exsistance of the platypus is proof enough that there is no God...I mean look at it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 8:16 PM Dragoness has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Dragoness, posted 08-18-2007 3:11 AM StrawberryPatchBug has not yet responded

    
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