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Author Topic:   The Importance of the First Amendment
platypus
Member (Idle past 4206 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 22 of 59 (464021)
04-22-2008 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Serdna
04-22-2008 7:22 PM


Some of you point to the catholic church and the fact that it does not take an official position on evolution and how many respected members and leaders of the catholic church have come out and publicly endorsed the theory of evolution. In response to this I would say that I cannot say why it has taken this course of action, and as a non-catholic I can say that it does not affect me or the majority of christians in america who do not follow the catholic church

A quick point. The Catholic Church likely accepts evolution because they have no problem with the evolution timeline. In fact, one of their own members created Big Bang Theory by solving Einsteins equation. Once their own astronomist set the several billion year timeline, evolution fell right into place. And they accept the creation story for what it is, a myth that contains truths, rather than the source of historical truth.


You hear evolutionist says we are descedant from apes and monkees. Sure, but that's not the point. All of life is related, not just human's with monkees. If you hug a tree, you're hugging a relative, a very distant relative, but a relative nonetheless." Dr. Joan Roughgarden in Evolution and Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Serdna, posted 04-22-2008 7:22 PM Serdna has not yet responded

  
platypus
Member (Idle past 4206 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 29 of 59 (464044)
04-23-2008 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Serdna
04-23-2008 12:50 AM


If you are a hindu you should not be forced to choose between dissecting a cow heart or getting an F.

I also believe that muslim students should be allowed to step out of a classroom for prayer as their religion dictates that they do so 5 times a day at certain times of the day. They should not however be allowed to do so in the middle of the classroom during a lesson because this interferes significantly with the other student's education.

In this same way we should not force anyone to say that something they believe to be true is false, or vice versa.

Wait, wait. A student stepping out of class or not dissecting a cow is completely different from refusing to be taught a certain curricula. In your examples, other options can be given. The Hindu can dissect another animal. The Muslim can stay after school for an additional lesson. These student do not object to the material itself, they just want the ability to practice their religion. Nothing in evolution prevents a creationist from practicing any part of their religion. If something is said in a science classroom that directly contradicts your religious belief, then there is something wrong witht eh science classroom or the religion belief. Science should never address religious belief, and religion should never make statements about science. This was settled centuries ago.

Please back this up with specifically what might be said in a biology class that is directly in conflict with a religious belief.

Edited by platypus, : No reason given.


You hear evolutionist says we are descedant from apes and monkees. Sure, but that's not the point. All of life is related, not just human's with monkees. If you hug a tree, you're hugging a relative, a very distant relative, but a relative nonetheless." Dr. Joan Roughgarden in Evolution and Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Serdna, posted 04-23-2008 12:50 AM Serdna has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Serdna, posted 04-23-2008 2:36 AM platypus has responded

  
platypus
Member (Idle past 4206 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 31 of 59 (464048)
04-23-2008 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Serdna
04-23-2008 2:36 AM


Im not saying that the hindu or islamic belief systems contradict the evolutionary theory and honestly I don't know enough about their beliefs to confidently comment on them. Instead I am using these as examples of what is and should be tolerated in public institutions such as schools and that the same tolerance must also be applied to potentially offensive teachings whatever they may be.

Really, I don't think this point is so complicated. In the Hindu and Muslim examples you gave, there is no objection to the content being taught, just the sample organism that is used in the teaching (Hindu) or the time in which the content is taught (Muslim). In the creationist example with evolution, it is the content that is objectionable. I am simply pointing out that your analogy is flawed, that what is happened to the creationist in the classroom is different from what is happening to the hindu and muslim.

Now, as for your examples of conflict, I am sure you must be refering to this:

One of the most basic teachings of most christian faiths is that the earth was created in perfect balance and that the sin that the sin of man, originating from Adam, let to the downfall of creation including death. Obviously death is an essential part of the theory of evolution, however since it claims that humans evolved much later in the evolutionary time line after the death of innumerable living organisms. Hopefully you can see how these two time lines don't sync up. This as well as the order of creation accounted in the book of Genesis which also goes against what is largely accepted as plausible by science. Which means either or the theory of evolution was wrong, or the infallible, omnipotent God of the bible was wrong and thereby voiding all subsequent biblical entries as not trustworthy because if He is wrong about something so simple as an order of events then what else did He "get wrong".

So the two conflicts are concerning the role and timing of death of humans, and the order of creation events. I will ignore the fact that there are two creation stories in the Bible for a second, and focus on this comment that you made to Dr. Jones:

If you can provide reasonable support and evidence for the fact that your governmentally recognized religion is in contradiction with math, then yes. However I do not foresee that happening as getting the government to recognize a religion takes a bit more than filling out some paper work and writing "Math is bad" under "List your religion's beliefs here".

So in other words for you to really object to how evolution is taught, there must be something in how your religion is registered with the government that goes directly against an evolutionary teaching. So tell me, in the two examples that you gave, does evolutionary teaching really contradict the fundamental aspects of whatever religion you are that is registered with the government, or does it simply contradict your interpretation of stories in the Bible? I'm really finding it hard to believe that when your religion was registered with the government, it was specifically stated that human death has to occur before the death of anything else. Otherwise, I need another example of conflict or a new argument.


You hear evolutionist says we are descedant from apes and monkees. Sure, but that's not the point. All of life is related, not just human's with monkees. If you hug a tree, you're hugging a relative, a very distant relative, but a relative nonetheless." Dr. Joan Roughgarden in Evolution and Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Serdna, posted 04-23-2008 2:36 AM Serdna has not yet responded

  
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