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Author Topic:   Is Intelligent Design Religion in the Guise of Science?
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 64 of 204 (447922)
01-11-2008 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Beretta
01-11-2008 6:36 AM


Re: Teleological arguments
Beretta,

Beretta writes:

Evolution has been a philosophical alternative to the creation story from the beginning. If there is no God, only matter, then let's make up our own story of where we came from avoiding God having anything to do with it.

You accuse scientists of making assumptions, but you yourself seem only to happy to assume that your concept of how evolutionary theory is true. For the record, you are wrong.
The most famous evolutionist of all, Darwin, was a Christian back when he was first forming his theories. Only later in life (abound 1851, when his daughter died) did he abandon his former religious beliefs.
Darwin started from a position of belief in a divine creator. When his observations contradicted this he changed his mind. He chose to completely turn away from religion, but there is in fact no reason why evolution and belief in God are incompatible. The ToE simply removes the necessity of resorting to God, in order to explain the complexity of life.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Beretta, posted 01-11-2008 6:36 AM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Beretta, posted 01-12-2008 5:56 AM Granny Magda has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 81 of 204 (448218)
01-12-2008 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Beretta
01-12-2008 5:56 AM


Re: Teleological arguments
Beretta,
There is much in your post that is in error, and some of it is spectacularly offensive, but I will settle for pointing out that not a word you have said refutes my point, i.e. that Darwin was a Christian first, evolutionist second. Your characterisation of the ToE as atheist propaganda is disproved, and isn't going to get any truer for your endlessly repeating it.

Beretta writes:

There are lots of reasons for incompatibility. The Bible for one says sin brought death.Evolution says death was there long before man so that would make the Bible a fairytale. That would also make Jesus' death on the cross 'for the sins of mankind' and 'to overcome death' completely unnecessary.
Either God created man and sin caused the fall of man or evolution is our creator.I call that completely incompatible.

Certainly evolution is incompatible with a literal reading of the Bible, but that's not the only reading possible. Plenty of Christians, and folks of other religious persuasions, manage to believe in God and evolution.

Congratulations though, on being honest enough to admit that the mysterious "designer" is God. Perhaps in future, you will simply refer to "intelligent design" as "biblical creationism". After all, if you're going to be honest about it, why not drop the pretence and call a spade a spade?


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Beretta, posted 01-12-2008 5:56 AM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Beretta, posted 01-13-2008 4:47 AM Granny Magda has responded
 Message 89 by Percy, posted 01-13-2008 8:28 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 110 of 204 (448520)
01-13-2008 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Beretta
01-13-2008 4:47 AM


Re: Teleological arguments
Hello Beretta,
I apologise for my "offensive" comment. It was based on my misreading of your post (need new spec's I fear) and upon re-reading, it is clear that you are not saying what I mistakenly thought you were saying. You are of course entitled to your own view of "truth".
Of course so are other Christians. There are many versions of Christianity out there, and there is no way for you to know whether yours is the version approved by God. Evolution may be incompatible with your Christianity, but it is perfectly acceptable for others, and they are no less Christian for it.
I admire your forthrightness in expressing your belief about evolution in an openly theistic way, but it is a fact that ID was created by Christian fundamentalists, with the express intent of getting creationism into schools by the back door, without having to mention God. The overwhelming majority of those who espouse ID are Christian creationists. ID only exists to provide a veneer of scientific respectability and fool the school boards into accepting creationism.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Beretta, posted 01-13-2008 4:47 AM Beretta has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 119 of 204 (448712)
01-14-2008 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Rahvin
01-14-2008 2:43 PM


Re: And Should it be Taught in Our Schools?
Rahvin,
As an aside, I recall a study in the UK, that found that government advice to the elderly on keeping warm during winter by insulating their homes, was less effective if phrased as "keep the heat in". People found it easier to understand if phrased as "keep the cold out", despite the fact that there is no such force as "cold". Advice was duly issued on how to keep out cold.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Rahvin, posted 01-14-2008 2:43 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 133 of 204 (449129)
01-16-2008 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Beretta
01-15-2008 12:43 PM


Re: And Should it be Taught in Our Schools?
Beretta writes:

The holocaust is a well documented fact of history and the enormous possibility that God played a massive part in human history is also worth knowing about.

Yes, the holocaust should be taught in history class, and the belief that god has influenced world history could be taught in comparative religion classes. Religion should not be allowed to creep into science classes.

Beretta writes:

If it's rubbish then don't worry about it having an effect -if it's true then everyone needs to know that there is a controversy

IF it's true then yes. So by your own argument, we would have to know that something is true before teaching it. ID has not provided evidence of its truth, so it stays off the curriculum. There is no controversy.

Beretta writes:

we didn't necessarily evolve from pond scum by pure accident

Do you never tire of repeating the same ridiculous straw-man version of evolution?

Beretta writes:

Compare and contrast instead of indoctrinating into one viewpoint and insisting that it is truth if there's a good chance that it is not.

Again, "IF there is a good chance it's not". There is no evidence that ID has a good chance of being true. In fact, the opposite is the case.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Beretta, posted 01-15-2008 12:43 PM Beretta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Beretta, posted 01-17-2008 5:31 AM Granny Magda has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 157 of 204 (449382)
01-17-2008 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Beretta
01-17-2008 5:31 AM


Re: And Should it be Taught in Our Schools?
Here's where you get to the point, Beretta;

Beretta writes:

those that don't like the idea of there being a God can opt for the material and those that know God can continue to believe in the light of supporting scientific evidence. Where's the threat?

So ID is science and it belongs in science class, but you clearly think that opinions will divide along solely religious grounds. The atheists will believe in a material universe, and the religious crowd will believe ID. So by your own admission, ID is religious.
You seem to have misunderstood what ID is for. There is no point in you supporting ID, when you openly admit that you are an out-and-out creationist. The whole point of ID is to keep the bible stuff quiet, so creationism can be smuggled into science class.
You have once again proved that ID is religious, and thus has no place in schools.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Beretta, posted 01-17-2008 5:31 AM Beretta has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 163 of 204 (449508)
01-18-2008 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Beretta
01-18-2008 5:40 AM


Re: And Should it be Taught in Our Schools?
Beretta,
If you are so convinced that Darwinism "does not line up with reality" then why don't you head back on over to RAZD's lovely Dogs will be Dogs will be... thread. You have ample opportunity to demonstrate there, how the evolutionary model doesn't fit the facts. Take a look at the evidence presented there and tell us all how it demonstrates that evolution is false. If you are unable to do this, then why not stop making unsubstantiated claims as though they were fact?
As long as you keep refusing to engage with the evidence, you will be the one wearing "mind-forg'd manacles" my friend.


Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Beretta, posted 01-18-2008 5:40 AM Beretta has not yet responded

  
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