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Author Topic:   The future of Creationism and mankind's intellectual evolution.
dsv
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 1 of 30 (184568)
02-11-2005 11:21 AM


I believe that the future is rather bleak for Creationists and fundamental Christians.

Perhaps that's somewhat of a bold statement to some. What I'm suggesting is the possible erosion of the Creationist and Young Earth philosophy due to mankind’s technological and scientific advancement.

Will it fall into Mythology, like the great Greek Gods before it? Perhaps more as a campfire narrative such as the famous Spanish explorers questing to the edge of the ever-so-flat Earth? Such thinking seems common in a more collective humankind future.

On the other side, do you believe that Creation will save us? Is the love for a common religious belief, the return/arrival of Christ what will ultimately bring us together?

At some point the nations of our Earth must blur to achieve a real movement toward advancement in technology and science as a human race. I sense that it is during this transition when Creation and fundamental religion will see a large step back. We will embrace the technology and evolution that I believe has gotten us this far.

It should be noted that I’m not suggesting that we will someday completely abandon the possibility of a Creator, as I think that is almost impossible. Instead, I’m focusing on the creation of existence as we know it, the ultimate weight the Bible and other religious texts will have on our society, and things of that nature.

I’m curious to hear your thoughts and discussion on this. I am a long-time lurker of these forums and have enjoyed the insights that come from reading your discussions.

This message has been edited by dsv, 11 February 2005 11:06 AM

This message has been edited by dsv, 11 February 2005 11:13 AM

This message has been edited by dsv, 11 February 2005 11:19 AM


Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2005 12:46 PM dsv has not yet responded
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 Message 11 by joshua221, posted 03-03-2005 6:10 PM dsv has not yet responded
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 Message 21 by randman, posted 07-03-2005 2:54 AM dsv has responded

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 30 (184570)
02-11-2005 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dsv
02-11-2005 11:21 AM


Promoted from PNT
by AdminJar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dsv, posted 02-11-2005 11:21 AM dsv has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 3 of 30 (184587)
02-11-2005 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dsv
02-11-2005 11:21 AM


There was an article out today over on the SETI secition of Space.com that deals with the issue of teaching evolution (both of species and the universe)

According to the editorial the teaching of evolution is saddly neglected in the US regardless of the rhetoric. It says that the concept of species evolution is required in under 10% of the state standards and the concept of an evolving unicverse mentioned in under half.

You can read the article here.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2852 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 4 of 30 (184590)
02-11-2005 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
02-11-2005 11:23 AM


Re: Promoted from PNT
I believe that Creationism will go the way of Geocentrism, far down into the depths where only the few really cling to it. By Creationism of course I mean using a literal interpretation of Genesis as a basis for history. I for one believe that God created the universe which is a form of Creationism just not in the way that the term is normally used.

I think the key to this belief is that really it is only the US where this is even a relativly major issue as far as I know. Even if evolution was ousted from public schools in the US it would still play a major part in college biology and in schools in the rest of the world. Even if the Creationist movement were to succeed (highly improbable), the most it would accomplish would be to set real biologists back once they start their real education. Somehow eliminating evolution from higher education would be the equivalent of remove biology completely from higher education. Some people might notice.

Creation Science in the flavor of AIG, ICR, Hovind, etc will die out first while ID might survive longer clinging to philosophy for life support while forever trying to be scientific. Specifically, the latest "discoveries" of the RATE group and "Biological Information Theory" sans a definition of information seem like the last futile gasps from the Creation Science community. These are not stupid people. They realize that their positions are untenable and continue either for profit (al la Hovind), justification that their work is a ministry, or inability to free themselves from their overly restrictive ideology.


By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2852 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 5 of 30 (184591)
02-11-2005 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dsv
02-11-2005 11:21 AM


WHoops, trying to reply to the OP.
My previous reply should have been to the OP not AdminJar. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 30 (184597)
02-11-2005 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dsv
02-11-2005 11:21 AM


quote:
Perhaps that's somewhat of a bold statement to some. What I'm suggesting is the possible erosion of the Creationist and Young Earth philosophy due to mankind’s technological and scientific advancement.

My opinion (and a humble one at that) is that creationism, and especially young earth creationism, is a knee jerk reaction from some in the christian movement to man's increasing technological abilities. Some christians see increasing non-religious knowledge and technology as a direct threat to spiritual life, somewhat like Quaker sects that separate themselves from current society. They see how the supernatural is kept out of science and then proceed to disregard what science produces because of this. Increasing knowledge will not matter because they will simply ignore it, or pull out the "atheist bias" card. They truly feel that religious conviction should sway scientific findings, and when they are denied this they disregard science.

There is also the martyr syndrome. The more they are persecuted for their beliefs, the more they are ridiculed, the more they are shown to be wrong by a "godless philosophy", the more reason to feel tha they are right. Jesus said that christians would be persecuted and this translates into the YEC mindset. A former poster on this forum took this to extremes and was eventually banned for it.

This is my view of how things work in the EvC debate. I could be totally wrong, but this is the feeling I get from the rhetoric used by creationists.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 407 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 30 (184598)
02-11-2005 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Loudmouth
02-11-2005 1:13 PM


The more they are persecuted for their beliefs, the more they are ridiculed, the more they are shown to be wrong by a "godless philosophy", the more reason to feel tha they are right.

I literally had a Christian youth group tell me "if you aren't being persecuted for your beliefs, you just aren't trying hard enough." Can you imagine such a sick thing to say to teenagers?


This message is a reply to:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 30 (184599)
02-11-2005 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
02-11-2005 1:16 PM


quote:
I literally had a Christian youth group tell me "if you aren't being persecuted for your beliefs, you just aren't trying hard enough." Can you imagine such a sick thing to say to teenagers?

I was told the same thing when I was in youth group as well. I can understand the philosophy and theology behind it, but it would be better for this to be brought up when these teens become adults. Luckily I didn't have self esteem issues, but I watched kids other kids form cliques within the youth group that actively sought out ways to be ridiculed by non-christians (however indirect their methods were). They seemed to all share the same need to belong to a group, and as such persecution only strengthened the group. I see the same thing happening within YEC organizations and loosely knit online YEC communities. Scientific accuracy is farthest from their minds. Evangelism is their only goal, and along the way they are encouraged that "atheist evolutionists" speak against them. You even see the "true christian" canard raised when they are confronted by theistic evolutionists.


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shackelfordster
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 30 (189734)
03-03-2005 2:30 AM


I have found a kind of opposite effect within my peer group, which includes my Unitarian Universalist youth group. It seems to me that a lot of open-minded, athiestic or agnostic, evolutionist youth go out of their way to confront anyone they suspect of holding faith-based views above science. I think its just a youth thing. There are certain things they hold as fact, and certain groups of people they know are dead wrong, and they believe that they can convince people that their worldview is correct.

  
Mespo
Member (Idle past 1825 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 10 of 30 (189766)
03-03-2005 10:34 AM


dsv writes:

Perhaps that's somewhat of a bold statement to some. What I'm suggesting is the possible erosion of the Creationist and Young Earth philosophy due to mankind’s technological and scientific advancement.

It is precisely mankind's technological and scientific advancements that are scareing the crap out of people and will insure the continuation of creationism and fundamentalism. Those two world views, if you will, promise a measure of control and black and white answers that modern secular society cannot.

People want concrete answers, not grim possibilites. It is better to invoke the name of God to come down and kick the stuffings out of the unbeilevers than to contemplate a dog-boy born of a sheep, courtesy of modern genetics.

Look at what's happening with nutritional studies and modern pharmaceuticals. Who do you believe? Who do you trust?

Ipods are okay. Cell phones are okay, unless you are Paris Hilton. But check your medicine cabinet and your 'fridge.

Religion can be a nice escape from the ills of today's world. Creos and Fundies have nothing to worry about. FACTS? They just get in the way. TRUTH? In church, every Sunday. What more do you need?

And when all else fails...
"What does evolution have to do with my salvation?"
It's a great fall-back answer that is difficult to overcome. Certainly not with logic and reasoning. You may come across as an intellectual snob.

(:raig


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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 11 of 30 (189872)
03-03-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dsv
02-11-2005 11:21 AM


hm
I think mankind intellectually is crumbling as a whole. I see it here where I live in America. Tests have become easier, standards once met have become lost, and books have turned to garbage. Bestsellers today are about diets, and punctuation. (just making fun of "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves.) Maybe it's just America but I don't see progression, rather regression. It very could well be just America, but I'm having a hard time seeing the greatness, of a nation that was once so great. The ideas of the enlightenment fade, replaced with corruption, and a horrible economy.

Bestsellers like the ones by by Hesse, Bradbury, cease to be produced, American novelists as prolific as Steinbeck or Angelou aren't here. Lifestyles have changed from respecable to utter laziness.


The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 12 of 30 (189873)
03-03-2005 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Mespo
03-03-2005 10:34 AM


Evolution of man's thinking, of the mind seems far more important than Physical evolution, comparing humans to the rest of the Animal Kingdom.


The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 13 of 30 (189875)
03-03-2005 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
02-11-2005 1:16 PM


I have never been in a Christian Youth Group, but I doubt I will ever join one after a youth pastor's interpretation of the "turn your cheek" reference... Apparently "turn your cheek" now means, Step up to your "opponent". What garbage. Then he tried to say America was founded on purely Christian beliefs, and the Founding fathers were all "born-again" cChristians. Sheesh, if only I had taken Global Studies the year before.


The subtlety of nature is far beyond that of sense or of the understanding; so that the specious meditations, speculations, and theories of mankind are but a kind of insanity, only there is no one to stand by and observe it.
-Francis Bacon "Novum Organum"

This message is a reply to:
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Fluke
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 30 (221331)
07-02-2005 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dsv
02-11-2005 11:21 AM


This is OT. Please do not respond to this message

I belive creation science has more going for it than evolution. i have numerous examples but i am interested in something. If you believe in evolution, could you tell me in what order did organs come about. e.g. the one cell organism, then 2, then a few, then it would get a lot bigger. what can first, lungs, bones to protect the lungs, blood, heart etc.

cheers

This message has been edited by AdminJar, 07-02-2005 11:09 AM


I don't generalize like most people.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 30 (221332)
07-02-2005 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Fluke
07-02-2005 11:45 AM


Hello, Fluke.

It doesn't appear that your comments are directly relevant to the original post. The original post is asking whether or not we can expect creationism to disappear in the near future.

On the other hand, thanks for bring this thread up -- it's an interesting OP, and I may have some comments on it after I think about it for a bit.


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