Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 73 (8962 total)
168 online now:
Faith, PaulK, Tangle (3 members, 165 visitors)
Newest Member: Samuel567
Post Volume: Total: 871,041 Year: 2,789/23,288 Month: 980/1,809 Week: 99/313 Day: 16/39 Hour: 2/10


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creationism in science classrooms (an argument for)
ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 176 of 609 (606212)
02-24-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Robert Byers
02-24-2011 2:49 AM


Robert Byers writes:

If the state teaches Genesis is false then its not neutral!


If the state taught that Treasure Island is true but War and Peace is fiction, that would not be neutral. If it teaches that both are fiction, that is neutral.

Similarly, teaching that Genesis is fiction - i.e. it doesn't match our observations of the real world - is not a breach of neutrality.

Neutrality means not treating one book differently from all of the others. That isn't really what you want, is it?


"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Robert Byers, posted 02-24-2011 2:49 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Robert Byers, posted 02-28-2011 5:03 AM ringo has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 233 of 609 (606761)
02-28-2011 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Robert Byers
02-28-2011 5:03 AM


Robert Byers writes:

Nope. its not taught based on the use of law.
Nothing to do with whether its true.


We were talking about neutrality. You claimed that the state is not being neutral if it teaches that Genesis is false. I said that it is being neutral if it treats all falsehoods the same.

Robert Byers writes:

In fact saying its not true, these Christian doctrines, is illegal as some posters here have said.


It isn't illegal to teach that Genesis is false - i.e. that it doesn't match observed reality. It isn't illegal to teach that Genesis is true either (although it could be seen as fraud). It's illegal to teach only Genesis above other religious writings.


You can have brevity and clarify, or you can have accuracy and detail, but you can't easily have both. --Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Robert Byers, posted 02-28-2011 5:03 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-28-2011 1:25 PM ringo has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 240 of 609 (606825)
02-28-2011 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Dr Adequate
02-28-2011 1:25 PM


Dr Adequate writes:

As I understand the interpretation that the courts put on the First Amendment, it is illegal (in public schools, which is what we're talking about) to teach that Genesis is true; and it is also illegal to teach explicitly that it is false. However, one can teach the facts that falsify it.


Yes, I may have oversimplified the legal niceties of exactly who can say what and where and at what time. I meant to emphasize that what's actually forbidden is singling out Genesis or any specific interpretation of Genesis.


You can have brevity and clarify, or you can have accuracy and detail, but you can't easily have both. --Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-28-2011 1:25 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Robert Byers, posted 03-03-2011 3:57 AM ringo has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 262 of 609 (607345)
03-03-2011 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Robert Byers
03-03-2011 3:57 AM


Robert Byers writes:

If one bans genesis on a subject where the object is truthful discovery of conclusions then one is saying GEnesis is untruthful.


Again, the law excludes all religious viewpoints equally. If scientists discover that Genesis - or any other book - is untruthful, the law doesn't ban those discoveries from the classroom.


You can have brevity and clarify, or you can have accuracy and detail, but you can't easily have both. --Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Robert Byers, posted 03-03-2011 3:57 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Robert Byers, posted 03-08-2011 4:09 AM ringo has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 282 of 609 (608000)
03-08-2011 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Robert Byers
03-08-2011 4:09 AM


Robert Byers writes:

Equally or not. Excluding Christian, for many, doctrines , by law, of origins in subjects insisting they are about faithful processes and conclusions upon truth in some origin issue MEANS the state has officially said some christian doctrines are false.


The point of the Establishment Clause is to prevent the doctrines of one sect from being placed above the doctrines of other sects - equality of religion. The application of that clause by the courts excludes all religious doctrines from public schools.

Science itself tries to exclude falsehoods from the science classroom, regardless of whether those falsehoods are Christian doctrines or not.

What we're talking about here is an attempt by some Christian sects to have their doctrines taught as science, excluding the opinions/doctrines of other Christian and non-Christian sects. That is what violates the Establishment Clause.


You can have brevity and clarify, or you can have accuracy and detail, but you can't easily have both. --Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Robert Byers, posted 03-08-2011 4:09 AM Robert Byers has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Robert Byers, posted 03-10-2011 3:23 AM ringo has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 284 of 609 (608006)
03-08-2011 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Robert Byers
03-08-2011 4:21 AM


Robert Byers writes:

Science class is never about process only but about conclusions.


Science class certainly should be about the process of science, just like driver education should be about the process of driving. Legality aside, creationism has little scope in the science classroom because it has no process. It's like teaching telekinesis in driver education.


You can have brevity and clarify, or you can have accuracy and detail, but you can't easily have both. --Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Robert Byers, posted 03-08-2011 4:21 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17924
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 319 of 609 (608423)
03-10-2011 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Robert Byers
03-10-2011 3:23 AM


Robert Byers writes:

The establishment clause is simply to protect religion from state interference or the state from being controled by some religion to the loss of others. Simple.


That's what I said.

Robert Byers writes:

Its not a purpose to stop a sect but a purpose to protect all sects.


Exactly.

Robert Byers writes:

Yet in origin subjects the state is teaching against sects beliefs and banning rebuttal which is a second act of state interference.


The schools are trying to teach the truth. If the truth is contrary to some sect's beliefs, that isn't the schools' fault.

Rebuttal is not being banned. Religionists are welcome to rebut all they want in their own venues.

Robert Byers writes:

Anyays they never meant schools were included in the "state".


The reason we have courts is because no law can anticipate every eventuality. The courts apply the law appropriately to changing conditions, like the introduction of state-sponsored schools.


If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Robert Byers, posted 03-10-2011 3:23 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020