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Author Topic:   How about teaching evolution at Sunday school?
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 61 of 106 (60190)
10-08-2003 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Adminnemooseus
10-08-2003 8:37 PM


LOL, I wasn't even paying attention to the subject line in the posts I made. My apologies oh Great Alces alces, may your horns never fall.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 106 (60192)
10-08-2003 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by NosyNed
10-08-2003 11:45 AM


religious beliefs should not contradict facts
quote:
If the churchs allow their followers to be mislead by the fundamentalists ideas and misleading pronouncements they are left unprepared if they finally do get exposed to the truth about evolutionary theory. At that time if they have allowed thier faith to get to closly tied to a "literalist" (of course, not really literal though) interpreation of the bible then their faith is at risk. When someone finds they have been lied to about one thing they may let the suspicion unfairly carry over into other aspects of what they have been taught.
This is true. There are many former fundamentalists (I am one) who renounced Chritianity completely when they realized that a literal reading of Genesis is contrary to basic facts and logic. The lieralist position is that it is impossible to truly maintain one's faith in Christianity without believing the Bible is to be read literally; this can become so ingrained in one's beliefs that, indeed, when it becomes impossible to believe that everything in the Bible is inerrant one loses one faith completely.
I am always surprised to run into Catholics, Presbyterians, and others who are staunch creationists despite the fact that the main governing bodies of their denominations accept evolution as the current scientific explanation of origins. Since creationism itself is a religious doctrine that is contrary to the official positions of many denominations, I don't think that it would be out of place for those denominations to explain this very carefully in their Sunday school classes.

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 63 of 106 (60193)
10-08-2003 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Asgara
10-08-2003 8:56 PM


Apologies. Obviously I don't mean everyone. I was referring only to those who have posted sarcastic rubbish, unlike yourself and Zephyr. I should have said like 'some people' not 'evolutionists'There are many here I like. He just seemed very reasonable.
EVERYONE ELSE IGNORE THIS MESSAGE.(off topic)

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 64 of 106 (60199)
10-08-2003 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peter
11-11-2002 8:26 AM


quote:
People have talked a lot about teaching creation in science
classes ... how do people feel about teaching evolution in
Sunday school? (if that's a UK specific term it's a church-led
school for kids that get's run on a Sunday).
Yeah, they do in my sunday school (ccd), along with the Big Bang. I asked the teacher since he doesn't believe it all happened in 6 days and that he believes the Bible is the infallible Word of God if he was calling God a liar or not, he said no but the real answer is obvious.
[This message has been edited by messenjaH, 10-08-2003]

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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 106 (60203)
10-08-2003 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by mike the wiz
10-08-2003 9:37 PM


quote:
I was referring only to those who have posted sarcastic rubbish
What? What'd I do? I'm not even on this thread!

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 66 of 106 (60247)
10-09-2003 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by NosyNed
10-08-2003 11:45 AM


Re: Terminal topic drift?
quote:
At that time if they have allowed thier faith to get to closly tied to a "literalist" (of course, not really literal though) interpreation of the bible then their faith is at risk. When someone finds they have been lied to about one thing they may let the suspicion unfairly carry over into other aspects of what they have been taught.
...and that is exactly what Zhimbo, who is also my husband, tells me is the reason he stopped going to church when he was 12, and eventually stopped believing when he got to his early teens.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-09-2003]

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Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6011 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 67 of 106 (60269)
10-09-2003 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by NosyNed
10-08-2003 11:45 AM


As Schraf pointed out, my church's handling of evolution and the age of the Earth was one of the primary reasons I left the faith. It's something I struggled with throughout my teens. But when I looked into things, I found the Hovind-style crap that my Sunday School classes taught me were wrong, sometimes even lies.
My Church taught me evolution and Christianity were incompatible; it was clear my Church was on the losing end of the evolution thing, so I (eventually) rejected Christianity.
If my Church had been less dogmatic and more, well, honest, I may still be Christian. Who knows.
So your scenario is not just hypothetical - it's my life!

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Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6011 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 68 of 106 (60276)
10-09-2003 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Trump won
10-08-2003 10:58 PM


"Infallible" and "literal" are two different things...Since days and nights occur before there's a Sun in Genesis, obviously absolute literality is impossible.

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BellaSanta
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 106 (60513)
10-11-2003 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Adminnemooseus
10-08-2003 8:37 PM


How about teaching evolution at sunday school
It may surprise you but I have pretty much been exposed to alot of differing views, in the first few years of High school I attended a Catholic school, I studied biology in a public school where I was first introduced to human evolution and told that it would only be introduced and not be studied any further for reasons I discussed in my previous post. I can't say that I am a creationist, however, as my mother has always said a happy medium should be found. In high school I learnt to do this when studying Ancient Egypt and the 'myth' of Ramesses the Great being the pharaoh in the bible! I am not saying that the bible is bogus, but it may be reasonable to say that we didn't all come from Adam and Eve, otherwise we would be a genetically degenerate species, which by the way I think is a sin in the bible [inbreeding that is].
NOSYNED: As a scientific thinker I would welcome a discussion of human evolution in schurch, however, I think that strongly religious people would be offended at my attempts of disproving certain aspects of the bible.
Understand ASGARA that I am not trying to mix and match different fields of beliefs, however, I don't believe that both should be ignorant of the other.
I recently addressed an essay question regarding the migration of H. erectus out of Africa and it's links to those found in South East Asia and the appearance of modern man. I know that just because some dating test on a clump of dirt gives an age, that that date is 100% correct, what I am trying to say, rather unsuccessfully I might add, is that anything is possible, and just because science says one thing doesn't mean its absolute, but then again just because a book is thousands of years old doesn't mean its complete crap.
LOUDMOUTH: I agree with you, but I also disagree. hehe. It would be fair to say that since religion is taught in public schools, then evolution should be taught at religious schools. However, Religion is a strong belief system and does not appear to have room or time for teachings in human evolution (that was the impression I got in High school).
Well, I don't mean this posting to be a sarcastic bashing in reply to other peoples postings, however it is getting rather late here and I am finding hard to articulate my discussion.
Good night all, keep safe.
Bella

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BellaSanta
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 106 (60514)
10-11-2003 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Zhimbo
10-09-2003 12:22 PM


I am rather intrigued Zhimbo.
I didn't really pay much attention at the Catholic High School that I attended and so am not certain what course of action they would have taken had I asked them about human evolution and disproving christianity. Of course my aim here is by no means to disprove religious beliefs. But I do wonder what views the majority of religious people take when being asked about the truth of human evolution and how it ties in with religion. Would they just shrug it off, do they seriously consider the facts or do some actually leave the faith as you did?
Bella

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Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6011 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 71 of 106 (60523)
10-11-2003 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by BellaSanta
10-11-2003 10:41 AM


quote:
"But I do wonder what views the majority of religious people take when being asked about the truth of human evolution and how it ties in with religion. Would they just shrug it off, do they seriously consider the facts or do some actually leave the faith as you did?"
I don't know the answer, but I'm sure it depends greatly on the faith. I was taught by my church that evolution was "bad", and incompatible with Christianity. So, with that set-up, if I accepted the veracity of evolution I had little choice in what to do with my faith.
Many, if not most, Churches are at least open to compromises with Evolution (the Catholic Church believes evolution is well-supported, but does not explain the existence of the soul, which is attributed to God); although belief in evolution in the pews runs lower than in the governing bodies of the churches.
Some folks just live with the cognitive dissonance created by education versus their religious beliefs, some modify one or the other. I actually suspect my story is rare in most churches, since most churches don't make, for example, the age of the Earth something of central importance.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 72 of 106 (60527)
10-11-2003 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by BellaSanta
10-11-2003 10:41 AM


The Catholic Church already has a clear position on this. What I understand (but have only read news reports) is that they accept evolution as the method God used. There is no conflict for them or the majority of Christians or the large minority (40%) of scientists who are believers.

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BarlowGirl
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 106 (61120)
10-15-2003 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by NosyNed
10-11-2003 2:33 PM


Hmm, that's basically what I'm beginning to believe. Wow, I actually for once agree on something with the Catholic Church.

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 74 of 106 (61137)
10-16-2003 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by NosyNed
10-11-2003 2:33 PM


Yepper. And interesting reading it is too. Although you can read the whole thing on line, I'll just repost some of the relevant bits from Pope John Paul II's 1996 Message ON EVOLUTION to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences:
Today, almost half a century after the publication of the Encyclical {Q note: Pius XII’s Humani generic}, new knowledge has led to the recognition of more than one hypothesis in the theory of evolution. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favour of this theory. (emphasis added)
Whoohoo! Go John Paul! Can’t ask for better than that. However, reconciling that statement with the whole spiritual thing needed a bit of squirming about. Also, the following proves it had to have been written by a Jesuit, who as everyone knows can argue the rust off a lump of iron ( ):
Revelation teaches us that he was created in the image and likeness of God (cf. Gn 1:27-29). The conciliar Constitution Gaudium et spes has magnificently explained this doctrine, which is pivotal to Christian thought. It recalled that man is "the only creature on earth that God has wanted for its own sake" (n. 24). In other terms, the human individual cannot be subordinated as a pure means or a pure instrument, either to the species or to society; he has value per se. He is a person. With his intellect and his will, he is capable of forming a relationship of communion, solidarity and self-giving with his peers. St. Thomas observes that man's likeness to God resides especially in his speculative intellect, for his relationship with the object of his knowledge resembles God's relationship with what he has created (Summa Theologica, I-II, q. 3, a. 5, ad 1). But even more, man is called to enter into a relationship of knowledge and love with God himself, a relationship which will find its complete fulfilment beyond time, in eternity. All the depth and grandeur of this vocation are revealed to us in the mystery of the risen Christ (cf. Gaudium et spes, n. 22). It is by virtue of his spiritual soul that the whole person possesses such a dignity even in his body. Pius XII stressed this essential point: if the human body takes its origin from pre-existent living matter, the spiritual soul is immediately created by God ("animas enim a Deo immediate creari catholica fides nos retinere iubet"; Encyclical Humani generis, AAS 42 [1950], p. 575).
Okay, so evolution is okay for all those other bits — or even all those other animals — but the Catholic Church hereby reserves to God the creation of mind. Mind didn’t evolve, ‘cause if we really squint our eyes and reinterpret Aquinas, and the whole part about in His image, that’s what he was talking about. So there.
Consideration of the method used in the various branches of knowledge makes it possible to reconcile two points of view which would seen irreconcilable. The sciences of observation describe and measure the multiple manifestations of life with increasing precision and correlate them with the time line. The moment of transition to the spiritual cannot be the object of this kind of observation, which nevertheless can discover at the experimental level a series of very valuable signs indicating what is specific to the human being.
Translation: Desperate times require desperate measures. Science can’t observe souls or the spirit — so we hereby proclaim that they exist and differentiate humans from everything else. Prove that they don’t, nyah nyah. Of course, this all sort of begs the question as to when God did the soul-implanting during human evolution, which even the Catholic Church can’t deny happened. I’d be curious as to where, in the line from Dryopithecus to Homo sapiens this supposedly occurred. However, for an attempt to retain some shred of credibility, the address isn’t bad.
[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 10-16-2003]

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Apostle
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 106 (62982)
10-27-2003 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Quetzal
10-16-2003 3:44 AM


Why not Teach Evolution at Sunday School
A very interesting discussion is going on here. I have not read the previous five pages so perhaps what I have to say has already been stated. If it has I apologize for repeating it.
TEACH EVOLUTION AT SUNDAY SCHOOL
I beleive the author is using hyperbole here, which of coarse is merely a way to emphasize his point. However many religious people send their children to school, and pay taxes towards this also, which makes them feel as if their viewpoint should be treated equally. Is this realistic?
The evolutionists money is not going to the Sunday school programs, and if he does not want to send his/her children their why should he/she worry about what is being taught. However the creationist does send their money to the school programs, so should equal time be given?
A Biblical teaching of Creation is not likely but a scientific teaching of creation is what many would consider a reasonable request. Many polls would seem to indicate this.
Also, pick up a Catechism of the Roman Church, written in 1996 by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. The Roman Church does not support the evolutionary beliefs that modern evolutionists hold dear.
Sincerely,
Apostle

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